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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5532170" data-attributes="member: 22779">Rolling back to the main issue.Really, the evolution of the game has led to this issue, at least IMO.In AD&D and older versions of the game, there wasn't such a large discrepancy between the usefulness of classes because so little of the stuff outside of combat was codified.  A fighter was just as good as a cleric at being a pirate captain (to use the current example) simply because the DM said so.  You didn't have skill lists and whatnot getting in the way.  The fighter was just as good as any class outside of combat, outside of certain elements that were the purview of the thief (open locks etc.).Could your character bluff the guard?  Play it out and let the DM decide.  Could you tell if the merchant was screwing you on the price of wool?  Again, play it out and let the DM decide.  Your class didn't really matter here.On the other side of the street, the casters were also MUCH more limited.  For one, their spell lists were a heck of a lot shorter.  Not just the spells known, but, the actual number of spells available.  I just opened my Expert rules and took a look.  12 spells per spell level and that was it.  TWELVE spells.  That's tiny.  There's more 1st level spells in 3e than there were in most of the Expert rules.  That has a large impact.  Additionally, memorization was problematic and casters lacked the deep resources (scrolls, wands, etc) available to 3e casters.  All these things keep the casters largely in check.2e changed this a bit by giving casters a great deal more spell choices and adding in things like Sphere spells and specialist wizards, which did give them more spells per day.  But, the skills rules were still very rudimentary and, really, the fighter was no further back than anyone else - 3 NWP vs 4 NWP to start and NWP didn't really deal with things like bluffing the guard or in-character talky stuff.  That was still mostly ad hoc by the DM.Plus, let's not forget, fighters got a HUGE bump in firepower in 2e with weapon specs and two weapon fighting rules.  The monsters, by and large, didn't change that much from 1e to 2e (with giants and dragons being the exception) so the fighter getting a big offensive bump makes a large difference.But, then 3e comes along.  3e takes away the free form roleplay that characterizes earlier D&D and replaces it with skills.  But, the idea that "Fighters only Fight" stays with us and fighters get pretty much no skills related to talking.  So, now the fighter is way behind the other classes when it comes to out of combat stuff.  And, as the levels go up, the disparity gets even longer.  Suddenly, instead of modeling archtypal big assed dudes as fighters, now we model them with multiclasses to make up for their lack of social skills (or any skills outside of combat really).  Add to that, the monsters get a HUGE bump in firepower compared to AD&D monsters and suddenly the fighter isn't dominating combat so much anymore either.  The fighter isn't obliterating demons in a single round, by and large, which was possible in AD&D.  And the bad guys are quite capable of ripping the fighter a new one very, very quickly.  Having double digit hit points doesn't help when the baddies are doing triple digit damage.On the other side of the street, all the limitations that casters operated under become much less stringent.  Casters gain bonus spells, casters can choose their spells (2/level for wizards) and gain a spell list longer than anything that came before.  Additionally, you can add in feats to make your spells even more effective.  Plus, the casters gain the possibility of very, very deep resources (10% of PC wealth gains about a HUNDRED scrolls, so much for not having the right spell all the time).Additionally, the non-casters gain direct access to all the non-combat skills.  While clerics might not have lots of skill points to burn, wizards, with their high int, certainly do.  And the power disparity gets very wide.  As you go up levels, that disparity gets even wider.</blockquote>

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