Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5533253" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And in most of the fiction I can think of the adventuring wizards in combat pick up a sword - see e.g. Gandalf and The Grey Mouser for details. Asked and Answered - simply not an answer you want.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And as I demonstrated if you want to do this, fighter is the wrong class. A Barbarian has effectively twenty eight more hit points at the same level (ten from the d12 and a further 18 from raging). He's better with his cutlass and as good with his pistol. He's just slightly easier to hit in melee.</p><p></p><p>And I've never used firearms in D&D. Where do you get 2d6 from? Because that seems high to me for pistols on the high seas. I'd go for 1d6.</p><p></p><p>Finally, and this is a statistical oddity, if there's time to prepare and recover the Level 9 bard is at least as good at taking a pounding as the fighter assuming equivalent armour. He starts 20hp down - but song of greatness gives him 2d10 + 2*con mod temp hit points (=17). And he can do that both before and in the middle of the battle. Throw in Inspire Courage +2 (for the crew as well) and he's on the same to hit as the fighter and doing the same damage (he lost 3 points of BAB but has +2 competence and +2 morale bonusses to hit, cancelling out the weapon focus, and +2 damage cancelling out weapon specialisation - the numbers match). Give him the Song of the Heart option from Eberron and the temp hit points go up to 3d10+3*con (25 each time - with the second use he's more hp than our barbarian) and he's hitting better than the fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> You mean level 6.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem with claiming this is that you are not building to a character concept. You are building to a character <em>and metagame</em> concept. The only reason Blackbeard even wants to be a fighter is because that is the metagame concept you have decided to shoe-horn him into.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And you spent three of those feats on shoring up the fighter's skills in a way the other classes wouldn't need. And two on weapon focus and weapon specialisation - which other classes have abilities that counterbalance. If you think that rage is more than a match for focus + specialisation (I do) then the fighter has effectively <em>no</em> bonus feats over the barbarian. Zip. Nada. Bupkiss.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only because you went in deciding to do whatever you could to make him so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The names of those two feats? Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation. In exchange the barbarian has a higher level of damage per round (but requires more healing) from raging. Two feats which in practice still leave him behind.</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Oh! You mean a barbarian? Or even a bard? All your fighter bonus feats have been eaten up by a mix of weapon focus, weapon specialisation, and covering for the fighter's appaling skills. The rest of the feats you mention are covered <em>entirely</em> by the default feats anyone gets.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Doh!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why? Your only answer here appears to be "Because I say so and because that's what a fighter <em>ought</em> to be."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A good reason he <em>isn't</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a lot more about being a skill monkey than it is about being a combat specialist. Running down unarmed merchant ships. Running away from armed naval ships. Knowing the shipping patterns, the waterways, and what good targets look like. If a pirate ship is ever involved in a fair fight it means they've <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />ed up (or gained a dose of idealism). This is all rogue and skill monkey stuff not fighter stuff.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It gives them Profession, Survival, and much less of a penalty for cross classing skills. Oh, and actually makes them more competent with weapons and armour. We're starting to get somewhere.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So? I've already said this. But we are talking about 3.X.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depending on concept, 3.X rogues and barbarians are almost invariably <em>better</em> pirates. So are rangers. So, for that matter, are bards.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5533253, member: 87792"] And in most of the fiction I can think of the adventuring wizards in combat pick up a sword - see e.g. Gandalf and The Grey Mouser for details. Asked and Answered - simply not an answer you want. And as I demonstrated if you want to do this, fighter is the wrong class. A Barbarian has effectively twenty eight more hit points at the same level (ten from the d12 and a further 18 from raging). He's better with his cutlass and as good with his pistol. He's just slightly easier to hit in melee. And I've never used firearms in D&D. Where do you get 2d6 from? Because that seems high to me for pistols on the high seas. I'd go for 1d6. Finally, and this is a statistical oddity, if there's time to prepare and recover the Level 9 bard is at least as good at taking a pounding as the fighter assuming equivalent armour. He starts 20hp down - but song of greatness gives him 2d10 + 2*con mod temp hit points (=17). And he can do that both before and in the middle of the battle. Throw in Inspire Courage +2 (for the crew as well) and he's on the same to hit as the fighter and doing the same damage (he lost 3 points of BAB but has +2 competence and +2 morale bonusses to hit, cancelling out the weapon focus, and +2 damage cancelling out weapon specialisation - the numbers match). Give him the Song of the Heart option from Eberron and the temp hit points go up to 3d10+3*con (25 each time - with the second use he's more hp than our barbarian) and he's hitting better than the fighter. You mean level 6. The problem with claiming this is that you are not building to a character concept. You are building to a character [I]and metagame[/I] concept. The only reason Blackbeard even wants to be a fighter is because that is the metagame concept you have decided to shoe-horn him into. And you spent three of those feats on shoring up the fighter's skills in a way the other classes wouldn't need. And two on weapon focus and weapon specialisation - which other classes have abilities that counterbalance. If you think that rage is more than a match for focus + specialisation (I do) then the fighter has effectively [I]no[/I] bonus feats over the barbarian. Zip. Nada. Bupkiss. Only because you went in deciding to do whatever you could to make him so. The names of those two feats? Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation. In exchange the barbarian has a higher level of damage per round (but requires more healing) from raging. Two feats which in practice still leave him behind. Oh! You mean a barbarian? Or even a bard? All your fighter bonus feats have been eaten up by a mix of weapon focus, weapon specialisation, and covering for the fighter's appaling skills. The rest of the feats you mention are covered [I]entirely[/I] by the default feats anyone gets. Doh! Why? Your only answer here appears to be "Because I say so and because that's what a fighter [I]ought[/I] to be." A good reason he [I]isn't[/I]. It's a lot more about being a skill monkey than it is about being a combat specialist. Running down unarmed merchant ships. Running away from armed naval ships. Knowing the shipping patterns, the waterways, and what good targets look like. If a pirate ship is ever involved in a fair fight it means they've :):):):)ed up (or gained a dose of idealism). This is all rogue and skill monkey stuff not fighter stuff. It gives them Profession, Survival, and much less of a penalty for cross classing skills. Oh, and actually makes them more competent with weapons and armour. We're starting to get somewhere. So? I've already said this. But we are talking about 3.X. Depending on concept, 3.X rogues and barbarians are almost invariably [I]better[/I] pirates. So are rangers. So, for that matter, are bards. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?
Top