NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Votan" data-source="post: 5533773" data-attributes="member: 18680">I see the issue with skills as being the relative gap.  It's not a fatal issue but consider the differences in BAB: rogue to fighter (@20th level) there is a 5 point gap in BAB (which might translate into an even larger "to hit" gap depending on a lot of factors).  In the same sense, there is a 6 point gap between good and bad saving throws at this level.There is a 23 point gap between a fully trained skill (e.g. balance) and an untrained skill (assuming equal ability scores, but they can only matter so much even at 20th level).  This has some perverse effects.  It's why grease (which requires balance checks) is so generally effective (as, unlike saves, skills do not advance with level).  It also means that a skill challenge (for 20th level characters, DC 30 seems about right) for a trained character is automatic failure for an untrained character.  Then there are just the odd skills (diplomacy) where core 3.5E decided not to make the skill check opposed.  So if a character can get a +60 in the skill, the one round action to convince hostile opponents that they should be friendly is now possible.  For me, the real issue was induced incompetence.  The Fighter might actually be okay at diplomacy relative to a normal person.  But she probably cannot meaningfully contribute next to the bard.  We don't see this in combat; a 20th level mage can melee a 10th level fighter very successfully (even without extreme design choices).  A 20th level fighter can't really compete in diplomacy with a 10th level bard 9again, barring an extreme design choice).But that isn't a skill specific issue.  No fighter can fly (no matter how much they wish to do so) but the ability is hardly exceptional in a 5th level mage.</blockquote>

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