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How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?
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<blockquote data-quote="NoWayJose" data-source="post: 5539325" data-attributes="member: 84810"><p>For what it's worth, this leads up to a summary of my subjective position over the last 10 pages:</p><p> </p><p>4E Essentials: Hynotism</p><p>* The target uses a free action to make a melee basic attack against a creature of your choice</p><p>* Slide the target up to 3 squares</p><p> </p><p>This is a classic case of 4E metagamey spell-as-an-effect [sup]1[/sup] design philosophy that makes little or no narrative/fictional sense.</p><p> </p><p>For those who expect that spells be designed with a fiction-first cinematic approach, Hypnotism fails spectacularly: By the letter of the rule, you can't use hypnotism to cause them to drop an item, say something, fall prone, stick their head in a bucket, etc.</p><p> </p><p>Like many 4E powers, for me, the title of the spell ('Hypnotism') and the fluff ('Your piercing gaze and whispered word let you seize momentary control of your enemy's mind') hints at marvelous possibilities, but the actual mechanics are a straightjacket. Expectations raised and dashed, promises and lies, all in the same breath.</p><p> </p><p>This lack of simulationism is tolerated or outright denied by people who are comfortable coloring inside the 4E lines [sup]2[/sup], and I can't deny them their right to have that experience.</p><p> </p><p>However, for me, the magic of magic (pun intended) has been smothered, thanks to 4E's fetish for balance [sup]3[/sup], codified behavior [sup]4[/sup], and downplay of human adjudication [sup]5[/sup].</p><p> </p><p>In the case of Hypnotism, I would scrap the spell, move it to a higher level, balance it with drawbacks, and/or (the lamest but easiest way) name it 'Power Word: Move Exactly 30 Feet or Attack Enemy' (which is super-gamey, but at least it's honest).</p><p> </p><p>But that's just a single illustrative example. Overall, I would personally, subjectively, ideally and theoretically prefer:</p><p>- A return or partial return to narrative/cinematic-based resolutions [sup]6[/sup]</p><p>- A return to literature/cinema as a source of design inspiration and player expectations [sup]7[/sup]</p><p>- Magic is more subtly balanced mechnically and narratively more fun and special than in 4e [sup]8[/sup]</p><p>- Spells are designed as a tool, not as an effect [sup]1[/sup]</p><p>- Attempt to define what evocations can and can't do in-game -- for the sake of consistency and clarity [sup]9[/sup]</p><p>- Add drawbacks to magic, tweak magic resource management, and reassess sacred cows -- for the sake of balance [sup]10[/sup]</p><p>- Wizards are semi-capable fighters (like Gandalf) [sup]11[/sup] or use low-power magic wands, etc. when spells run out -- for the sake of continual contribution</p><p>- Scholarly wizards with little melee value and more powerful magicks are optional for advanced/mature games [sup]12[/sup]</p><p>- Avoid swinging all the way back to pre-4E uber-wizard issues that some people have experienced at higher levels [sup]13[/sup]</p><p> </p><p>If you disagree with any of the above, you have every right to argue otherwise. That said, if you're happy with the 3E or 4E status quo, you're already good to go!</p><p> </p><p>Any helpful comments or constructive suggestions?</p><p> </p><p>Edit: I don't think that page 42 of the DMG is the best answer [sup]14[/sup]</p><p> </p><p>1. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-98.html#post5536926" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-98.html#post5536926</a></p><p>2. Various posts pg 100-101 and other threads about metagame vs fiction-first, simulationism, verisimilitude, etc.</p><p>3. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-96.html#post5535445" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-96.html#post5535445</a> and <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537089" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537089</a></p><p>4. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-91.html#post5533899" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-91.html#post5533899</a></p><p>5. Various posts pg 100-102 and <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/304989-player-control-how-game-has-changed-over-years-why-i-dont-like.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/304989-player-control-how-game-has-changed-over-years-why-i-dont-like.html</a></p><p>6. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5538972" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5538972</a></p><p>7. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5539089" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5539089</a></p><p>8. Most of pg 98</p><p>9. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537032" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537032</a></p><p>10. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537835" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537835</a></p><p>11. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534115" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534115</a></p><p>12. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534264" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534264</a></p><p>13. Pages 97 and lower</p><p>14. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-104.html#post5540211" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-104.html#post5540211</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NoWayJose, post: 5539325, member: 84810"] For what it's worth, this leads up to a summary of my subjective position over the last 10 pages: 4E Essentials: Hynotism * The target uses a free action to make a melee basic attack against a creature of your choice * Slide the target up to 3 squares This is a classic case of 4E metagamey spell-as-an-effect [sup]1[/sup] design philosophy that makes little or no narrative/fictional sense. For those who expect that spells be designed with a fiction-first cinematic approach, Hypnotism fails spectacularly: By the letter of the rule, you can't use hypnotism to cause them to drop an item, say something, fall prone, stick their head in a bucket, etc. Like many 4E powers, for me, the title of the spell ('Hypnotism') and the fluff ('Your piercing gaze and whispered word let you seize momentary control of your enemy's mind') hints at marvelous possibilities, but the actual mechanics are a straightjacket. Expectations raised and dashed, promises and lies, all in the same breath. This lack of simulationism is tolerated or outright denied by people who are comfortable coloring inside the 4E lines [sup]2[/sup], and I can't deny them their right to have that experience. However, for me, the magic of magic (pun intended) has been smothered, thanks to 4E's fetish for balance [sup]3[/sup], codified behavior [sup]4[/sup], and downplay of human adjudication [sup]5[/sup]. In the case of Hypnotism, I would scrap the spell, move it to a higher level, balance it with drawbacks, and/or (the lamest but easiest way) name it 'Power Word: Move Exactly 30 Feet or Attack Enemy' (which is super-gamey, but at least it's honest). But that's just a single illustrative example. Overall, I would personally, subjectively, ideally and theoretically prefer: - A return or partial return to narrative/cinematic-based resolutions [sup]6[/sup] - A return to literature/cinema as a source of design inspiration and player expectations [sup]7[/sup] - Magic is more subtly balanced mechnically and narratively more fun and special than in 4e [sup]8[/sup] - Spells are designed as a tool, not as an effect [sup]1[/sup] - Attempt to define what evocations can and can't do in-game -- for the sake of consistency and clarity [sup]9[/sup] - Add drawbacks to magic, tweak magic resource management, and reassess sacred cows -- for the sake of balance [sup]10[/sup] - Wizards are semi-capable fighters (like Gandalf) [sup]11[/sup] or use low-power magic wands, etc. when spells run out -- for the sake of continual contribution - Scholarly wizards with little melee value and more powerful magicks are optional for advanced/mature games [sup]12[/sup] - Avoid swinging all the way back to pre-4E uber-wizard issues that some people have experienced at higher levels [sup]13[/sup] If you disagree with any of the above, you have every right to argue otherwise. That said, if you're happy with the 3E or 4E status quo, you're already good to go! Any helpful comments or constructive suggestions? Edit: I don't think that page 42 of the DMG is the best answer [sup]14[/sup] 1. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-98.html#post5536926[/URL] 2. Various posts pg 100-101 and other threads about metagame vs fiction-first, simulationism, verisimilitude, etc. 3. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-96.html#post5535445[/URL] and [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537089[/URL] 4. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-91.html#post5533899[/URL] 5. Various posts pg 100-102 and [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/304989-player-control-how-game-has-changed-over-years-why-i-dont-like.html[/URL] 6. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5538972[/URL] 7. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-101.html#post5539089[/URL] 8. Most of pg 98 9. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537032[/URL] 10. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-99.html#post5537835[/URL] 11. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534115[/URL] 12. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-92.html#post5534264[/URL] 13. Pages 97 and lower 14. [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/302220-how-wizard-vs-warrior-balance-problem-handled-fantasy-literature-104.html#post5540211[/URL] [/QUOTE]
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