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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8250450" data-attributes="member: 93670">No I'm not.  I don't believe that maximize exists in 5e but exist or not lets say it does.  for the sake of argument lets go with a maximized  <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=0&filter-search=disintegrate&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=" target="_blank">disintegrate</a> spell 10d6+40 maximized to 60+40=100 or even something really beefy like the 9th level spell <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/meteor-swarm" target="_blank">meteor swarm</a> dealing 20d8 bludgeoning, again lets maximize it to 8x20=160 that sounds really impressive, but when you look at the math it's anything but given that from level 17-20 a caster will have one level nine spell slot per long rest along with one 6th level spell slot from 10-18 where that jumps to two at 19-20.  In this example where you are defending mind sliver as an underestimated debuff the sorcerer used two rounds with one dealing very poor damage.  Lets be generous & say the sorcerer was level 17+ for 4d6=14 mind sliver damage.  That brings the per round to 114/2=57 for that maximized disintegrate & 174/2=87 with a maximized meteor swarm after setup.  Don't forget that it doesn't look like maximize even exists in 5e other than one of the wildmagic surge possibilities.  with the easy maximized damage here to avoid any variance using a metamagic that might not even exist in 5e lets see what has an average at or around 57/round to compare[spoiler="Things close to that level 17+caster casting mindspike+theoretical maximized disintegrate"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A level11 fighter with GWM a +0 greataxe & a maybe behind the curve 14 16 or 18 strength dealing completely average damage [ATTACH=full]135766[/ATTACH]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">But GWM is a whole feat investment while the theoretical maximize  is no doubt a free every round participation trophy level investment so lets compare a longsword & shield fighter to that level 17mind sliver+maximized disintegrate. [ATTACH=full]135761[/ATTACH]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Look at that the fighter needs 18 strength & a +1 weapon or 20 strength for their average damage to hit that theoretical  mind sliver+maximized disintegrate when they pop action surge....<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course that goes out the window if one or more of those six attacks is a crit, but lets pretend there are no crits & instead look at how the fighter recovers action surge & how the sorcerer recovers that one level 6 slot. [ATTACH=full]135763[/ATTACH] You might have other ideas I'm not considering but I can't seem to find any way for the sorcerer to recover that one level 6 spell slot. Given that maximize seems to only come from wildmagic surge rolls of 33-34 it's safe to say that it's going to be a tiny bit less frequent than action surge even if the sorcerer is rolling on the surge table every round.</li> </ul></li> </ul></li> </ul>[/spoiler] Well that was a poor showing pitting a level 17 sorcerer against a level 11 fighter who had to step up from starting gear & feat to a +1 longsword& shield with 18 strength.  I don't know about you, but  I'm not seeing the case your trying to make getting backed up there so feel like moving on  to the maximized 9th level meteor swarm. As noted above mindsliver+maximized meteor swarm is 174 damage across two rounds or an average of 87/round.[spoiler="wait those numbers sound familiar... why do they ring a bell so loudly"]Oh that's right greataxe & gwm with 18-20 strength tops out at 82 & 86 using a +0 greataxe as included above.  Since the sorcerer won't even get  9th level slot until 17 it's a reasonable comparison to make using a fighter 3 levels higher instead of a fighter six levels lower....<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[ATTACH=full]135767[/ATTACH]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Well look at that, it takes a level 5 fighter with GWM 16 strength & action surge using a +2 greataxe to get there, you can of course drop that to +1 & +0 with 18 & 20 strength respectively</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Meteor swarm is a 40 foot radius sphere so we can use dmg249 to see that wotc has told us that meteor swarm using the 40/5 should be damaging 8 targets per cast.  That raises two very critical questions<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="one"]You were saying that I  was underestimating mindsliver. Out of those eight targets that may or may not exist in a fight & may or may not be within 40ft of each other why is it that only one of them critically needs that -1d4 to save as you note & if that's something where more than one of those eight hypothetical targets needs it then exactly what part was I underestimating?...  Lets give it the benefit of the doubt & say that those 8 targets are the bbeg plus some mooks.  Oh wait... [ATTACH=full]135768[/ATTACH] Good thing the sorcerer debuffed that save by the 1d4 so the bbeg targeted by mindsliver could choose to suceed instead.  This was with a cr13 vampire but that legendary resist only gets more & more common the higher you go.[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="two"] Wotc expects 6-8 encounters & two short rests per long.  Do you think that the fighter gets 4-8 rounds of average damage in depending on if they pop action surge or not?... I think they probably do[/spoiler]</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">But what about if the fighter has no magic weapons? [spoiler="Lets see what Wotc has for advice there first"] [ATTACH=full]135769[/ATTACH][/spoiler]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wait a minute, it looks very much like wotc designed a blaster sorcerer using a maximized high level spell should compare to a fighter dealing half damage because of a situation they advice against & take pains to prevent in at least three different publications...</li> </ul></li> </ul>[/spoiler]Really not seeing the case your making for me underestimating the value.  Mindsliver is single target not AOE so it's not making up the value with aoe nukes aoe debuffs & aoe control spells.  Given the damage disparity even top shelf single target debuffs seem dubious in their ability to make up the chasm needed for -1d4 to be merely underestimated in value</blockquote>

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