How long, in-game, does it take to gain a level? (RttToEE)

[LostSoul]

I am gearing up to run the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. I want to create a timeline for the Temple's activities so that the PCs can disrupt their goals or fail.

I'm not sure how long their goals should take to accomplish. I want the choices the players make - press on, head back to town and rest, make magic items, travel to Verbobonc to shop - to have consequences. Those consequences should be that the cult gets closer to their goals.

I'm thinking that the best way to go about this is to figure out how many days it takes them to gain 10 levels - bringing them up to 14th level, as in the module - and write the timeline from there.

(One issue: if the players are too good at getting through the various guardians, they won't have enough XP to meet later challenges. Though this may not actually be an issue. If they blow through the guardians, it will mean that they have more time to make magic items, gather allies, or things of that nature, instead of spending all their time resting.)

What things do I need to consider? Travel times, rest, some amount of magic item crafting... anything else? Once the PCs hit 9th level, they should have access to Teleport, and that may change the number of in-game days it takes to level.

Hectic Pace: 4 encounters per day + travel times. Does not allow for screw-ups or magic item creation.
Slow Pace: 1 encounter per day + travel times. Allows for magic item creation and the five-minute adventuring day.

Anyway, any thoughts?

 

[Nezkrul]

setting in-game timelines on plot which can cause the players to "lose" is a bad idea, because the players are NOTORIOUS at not sticking to said timelines, especially when it is campaign essential to keep them secret from the players.

 

[LostSoul]

setting in-game timelines on plot which can cause the players to "lose" is a bad idea, because the players are NOTORIOUS at not sticking to said timelines, especially when it is campaign essential to keep them secret from the players.

1. Why is losing a bad thing? I'd say that setting it up so the actions of the PCs - on a strategic level - have little bearing over whether or not they "lose" removes a lot of opportunity to make meaningful decisions from the players.

[sblock=Spoilers for the RttToEE]I'm changing it so that the cult's goal isn't "THE END OF THE WORLD" because I want to continue on with the campaign even if bad things happen.

The cult's goal is to unleash another Invoked Devastation - probably on Furyondy, I haven't quite decided yet.

I changed some of the history to make the Twin Cataclysms related to Tharizdun. Interestingly enough, in my research I discovered that the Elder Elemental God had a role to play in the Bakluni's calling of the Rain of Colourless Fire. EGG had this to say about its role:

It is said that Dorgha Torgu is the outcast of the deities of Oerth.
This is because he is the one from whom came the Rain of
Colorless Fire upon the Suloise Empire, thus violating both his
Neutrality and his charge. While the Invoked Devastation of the
Suel was wrought through the vilest of the Evil powers, the counter
response was unjust despite provocation. Swayed by the evil
counsel of Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq, that alien thing which is called an
Elder Elemental God, Dorgha Torgu bent dimensions and loosed
unnatural elements in his charge so as to precipitate upon the Suel
realm the near-invisible and unquenchable flames that consumed
the land, burning even rock to powdery ash.​

- Oerth Journal 12

Now while EGG didn't intend for the EEG to have any relationship to Tharizdun, that's a big part of the module.[/sblock]

2. I don't think the fact that the cult is trying to accomplish something is a secret. The actual timeline - what the cult is doing day-to-day - is probably a secret, but if the PCs discover it, then they discover it. That's another meaningful choice to make: how much time are you going to spend gathering information vs. getting in there and mixing it up?

 

[Jacob Marley]

The Red Hand of Doom could work as a good rule of thumb. The adventure is designed around a party of four level 5 characters who advance to level 10 - the adventure takes place over 65+X days (where X varies between 1 and 6 days depending on PC action). While there is much more traveling in the RHoD than in RttToEE, there is also less downtime for crafting.

Extrapolating out from this, -- for a level 4 to level 14 campaign -- I'd say somewhere between 100 and 120 days would be a a good amount of time to keep the presure on the PCs to act while still allowing for travel and crafting downtimes.

 

[Dozen]

[sblock=Spoilers for the RttToEE]Getting into specifics when in a race of time is hard to accomplish, but it's not as horrible as Nezkrul explains. Still, your safest bet, as loathsome as it is, would be a kind of shade-of-grey railroading; that is, no matter what path the players choose, they'd get enough XP to burn trough those levels in time. But in the end, aquiring levels is not necessarily a matter of time even if the victory condition is. It depends more on the number of encounters and the way you reward your players for solving them.

I dunno about the Red Hand of Doom mentioned before, but handcrafting is alway a safer method than a set standard.

That settled, let's get into specifics. If I were you, I'd go for the more comfortably paced 1 encounter per day on average. You are supposed to be able to calculate the number of encounters required to gain a level from ECL, but sadly ECL is rarely fit to be relied on. We should try a different approach. Divide the XP requirement for each level by the XP they should get for every encounter the level they are at on average (the exact amount is up to you). Add them up. The result is the number of encounters you will need.
Now, scale your timeline according to this. A usual level-appropriate encounter may still end with some serious wounds or too much wasted spell slots they can't ignore if they mess up at one point, which essentially is eight hours worth of setback. Lenghten the timeline by, say, 4-9 days to allow your players some time to recover from those. I think this should prove solvable enough.
You should also take the players' motives and plans into account. Do they want to get to their destination the fastest or at least the fastest logical way possible? In that case, you should make sure at least two times those ways award enough XP to reach the level cap you want to achieve by doing the math or you may find yourself over your head. Do they want to hoard up treasure instead on the way, or do sidequests? Then stretch the timeline a little, but not too much, and keep them pressured to remind them what they are risking. Are they the kind who like to defy you just for the hell of it? Then you might as well double or triple the time they have while subtly trying to get them to the plot. Outright oldschool railroading is not an option here. The more you stretch the campaign, the more time you'll have to figure out how to lure them to the ending without being malicious. Some personal sidequests for each player which in the end get tied to each other and the temple might be a good start. The best quest for each player is the ones they set up for themselves or those that fullfill their reason for playing. These pretty much fall into your lap; you'll only have to figure out how are those quests impeded by the villains or how beating them will advance it - this will make the main plot feel personal for them.[/sblock]

 

[TheYeti1775]

Unless you have a hard reason for locking the timeline in place, set markers within the adventure.
Base the timeline off their levels.

i.e.
Characters slay minor boss one early (say level 2) when they shouldn't have had him for another two levels.
Pause your timeline until they gain the 2 levels.
Perhaps the Temple ran into a difficulty in their supply line.

Or
The characters are level 4 but haven't gotten to the minor boss put the marker into play 'forcing' actions by the characters on things they hear are going on.

 

[LostSoul]

Unless you have a hard reason for locking the timeline in place, set markers within the adventure.
Base the timeline off their levels.

That sounds like an elegant solution, but I'm not sure what it means for player choice.

Let's say that something triggers when the PCs hit level 13. The PCs hear about some event coming up when they're 12th level.

Their choice:
Face the higher-level challenge to prevent the consequence (the event).
Level up before facing the higher-level challenge, but suck up the consequence (that event will happen).
Take off a year or two making magic items, then make the choice as above.
Take off five years running a business in a Metropolis, get some GP, spend those GP on magic items, then make the choice as above.
5-minute adventuring day (scry-buff-teleport-fight-teleport-rest-repeat) to minimize cost of each encounter in both PC death and magic item depletion.

Let's add some context:

[sblock=More Spoilers]The PCs, at 11th level, learn that the Doomdreamers are excavating the Temple. Lareth is there with the Orbs and will soon summon the Elemental Champions. This event triggers when the PCs hit 13th level.

The smart choice would be to take off a few years to make some GP, while making sure you don't get any XP. (The number of years you have depends on how close you are to the next age category, and if you want to suck up those penalties to your physical stats.) Then you spend those GP on magic items. Divination spells - Contact Other Plane - can tell you which magic items you should get. (I chose Contact Other Plane because the drawback - losing Int or Cha for a few weeks - isn't a drawback when time is unlimited.)

(If you're all elves I guess you could wait around until Lareth dies of old age.)

This is obviously nonsensical, so we'd want to introduce an in-game time condition. Then we're back where we started.

You could say something like "1 month or until they gain a level." The best choice is to dawdle around making GP, then go in hard when your time is running short.

I guess you could hide all this information from the players, but something about that doesn't sit right with me. The players think they are making decisions that matter but they really aren't. If we want players to feel like their decisions matter, why not just make them matter instead of trying to deceive them?[/sblock]

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

 

[TheYeti1775]

That sounds like an elegant solution, but I'm not sure what it means for player choice.

Let's say that something triggers when the PCs hit level 13. The PCs hear about some event coming up when they're 12th level.

Their choice:
Face the higher-level challenge to prevent the consequence (the event).
Level up before facing the higher-level challenge, but suck up the consequence (that event will happen).
Take off a year or two making magic items, then make the choice as above.
Take off five years running a business in a Metropolis, get some GP, spend those GP on magic items, then make the choice as above.
5-minute adventuring day (scry-buff-teleport-fight-teleport-rest-repeat) to minimize cost of each encounter in both PC death and magic item depletion.

Let's add some context:

[sblock=More Spoilers]The PCs, at 11th level, learn that the Doomdreamers are excavating the Temple. Lareth is there with the Orbs and will soon summon the Elemental Champions. This event triggers when the PCs hit 13th level.

The smart choice would be to take off a few years to make some GP, while making sure you don't get any XP. (The number of years you have depends on how close you are to the next age category, and if you want to suck up those penalties to your physical stats.) Then you spend those GP on magic items. Divination spells - Contact Other Plane - can tell you which magic items you should get. (I chose Contact Other Plane because the drawback - losing Int or Cha for a few weeks - isn't a drawback when time is unlimited.)

(If you're all elves I guess you could wait around until Lareth dies of old age.)

This is obviously nonsensical, so we'd want to introduce an in-game time condition. Then we're back where we started.

You could say something like "1 month or until they gain a level." The best choice is to dawdle around making GP, then go in hard when your time is running short.

I guess you could hide all this information from the players, but something about that doesn't sit right with me. The players think they are making decisions that matter but they really aren't. If we want players to feel like their decisions matter, why not just make them matter instead of trying to deceive them?[/sblock]

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

You have the general gist of it, the you can add in the time factor if they are obiviousily doing such a tactic. Several parts of that module if I recall correctly allow for time to inflitrate and what not. I wouldn't allow them a full year off to prep for the five minute hit and run.
Prep a few assasin teams not in the book (built to fail the first encounter) when you think they have enough time off. The teams are made of rookie wannabes that the Temple knows it can throw away. Heck you can even make them low enough that they aren't even worth exp points.
Use them as eye openrs.

 

[James the Newbie]

I think the unfortunate side effect of this is, only you can judge your PC's progress. You may want to do a couple of things. First look at your PC's, what kind of characters do they have, possibly compare them using the tier list .

Once you have a fair gauge of what they can and can't beat, just do a couple of dungeon crawls, that are totaly out of context and don't effect the game. This lets the Pc's have some fun adventuring, all the while you can jot down what resources they used, and how that impacts them.

After this is done you should try and work out how much experience they gained, and you will know roughly how many encounters it takes to level up, and how long they can face those encounters.

The last bit of advice I can give is, jumping head first into the campaign you dont understand the characters in, can be a bit tough, best to see them in action first.