How Low is Too Low

[Nytmare]

At what point do lower level monsters really stop being any kind of credible threat to a party?

 

[Zaran]

I think it depends on how you use them. The DMG suggests you throw in a -1 level encounter every so often. I think as long as you make up for the lower level of individual foes with the size of the encounter (using suggested levels of xp) you will still have a challenging fight. In fact, the players will probably enjoy being able to take out non-minions faster. And you can do things to offset lower attacks by having the monsters Aid Another. So I would say monsters 3 levels lower could easily be viable.

You could also bump some up. Maybe those goblins were trained by a blind swordmaster. While the PCs were thinking they were going to beat some level 1s like baby seals, the goblins hand them their heads on a platter.

 

[Antronach]

anything that needs higher than a 13 to hit over half the party i consider useless.

Of course they could be in there as fodder if they're minions to protect a leader/artillery/controller and still be a threat. Nothing like the caster having 24 level 1 goblins surrounding him to keep the melee from getting in at him.

 

[Shin Okada]

There may be exceptions. Something which does automatic damage or effect could be a threat (though minimal) even if it needs to roll 20 for hitting a PC.

For example, a 3rd level controller (leader) Goblin Hexer is something even a 30th level PCs can't ignore when fighting against Orcus. Automatic -2 to attack is a biiig ouch!.

Also, healers are always something you can't ignore. Now monsters still have at least one healing surge. And they can make saves. So if a monster can let another monster roll a save or spend a healing surge.....

 

[Nifft]

There may be exceptions. Something which does automatic damage or effect could be a threat (though minimal) even if it needs to roll 20 for hitting a PC.

For example, a 3rd level controller (leader) Goblin Hexer is something even a 30th level PCs can't ignore when fighting against Orcus. Automatic -2 to attack is a biiig ouch!.

Also, healers are always something you can't ignore. Now monsters still have at least one healing surge. And they can make saves. So if a monster can let another monster roll a save or spend a healing surge.....

At the point that a monster isn't a direct combat threat, I'd turn it into some kind of environmental effect (possibly with a Skill Challenge-esque success threshold to remove).

Cheers, -- N

 

[frankthedm]

At what point do lower level monsters really stop being any kind of credible threat to a party?

when they pose little threat [rarely can hit], yet they still have plenty of HP to take hit after hit.

The "to hit" & HP totals for monsters scales up and down steadily, but PC damage output climbs much slower. Hordes of lesser foes will rarely hit, but they have so much HP, they will be on the table for a long time.

 

[Gort]

According to the Wizards Optimisation forums for 4e:

"What I've observed is: 14 DPR(1st), 20 DPR(6th), 40 DPR(12th), 60 DPR(16th), 100 DPR (24th), 150 DPR(30th)"

DPR meaning damage per round.

If you're going to go "that's not possible", one of many character builds that accomplish it is here, and it's not even a particularly munched out or complex one to do. There are also builds that do more damage.

Even at first level, though, you can expect to take out a guy every two rounds with a decently-made striker, and damage increases ten-fold from there to level 30.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

According to the Wizards Optimisation forums for 4e:

"What I've observed is: 14 DPR(1st), 20 DPR(6th), 40 DPR(12th), 60 DPR(16th), 100 DPR (24th), 150 DPR(30th)"

DPR meaning damage per round.

If you're going to go "that's not possible", one of many character builds that accomplish it is here, and it's not even a particularly munched out or complex one to do. There are also builds that do more damage.

Even at first level, though, you can expect to take out a guy every two rounds with a decently-made striker, and damage increases ten-fold from there to level 30.

I think this REALLY depends on the players and party build. Plus this is strictly only true for strikers. Fighters can definitely get there too but only with more tweaking. Your average leader or controller will net out a good bit less. If you have pretty much average players you'll also have a good bit lower totals.

For instance the 8th level BS rogue in current game is doing 1d4+2enh+4dex+4str+1feat+2d8 = 22.5 per HIT with say Piercing Strike. A 2W attack is only going to bring that up to 25 and a 3W to 27.5 per hit. Figure in crit damage adds a negligible amount and with a typical to-hit bonus of +14 vs NAD you're going to be hard pressed to be doing anything close to the 30DPR you're considering. More like in the high teens. This is pretty typical for real world PCs vs what shows up on charops.

In other words realistically even low level monsters can hang tough for a couple rounds, though they aren't going to do much damage against her AC 23 when they're swinging at the +5 of a low level monster. The point is they're at least SOME level of threat still and that's considering a monster that's 6 levels below you. The thing is I think it depends on level. A level 2 monster vs a level 8 PC is still a bit of a threat. A level 12 monster vs a level 18 PC is in some respects MORE of a threat. It could stick around a while.

 

[Destil]

At what point do lower level monsters really stop being any kind of credible threat to a party?

Credible Thread = Requires resources?
Or Credible Thread = Dangerous (i.e. possible to kill a PC)?

For the first, you get 1/2 of an action point and magic item use per encounter. So a break-even encounter has the PCs using action points and daily magic items equal to half their number. Likewise they would ideally be taking less than one surge of total damage each (half a surge each, mabye, to eyeball it?).

If your party dosn't get a short rest before the next fight it becomes anything that requires spending encounter resources...

 

[Victim]

It depends on the monster, situation, etc. I've dealt some real damage with party level -4 skirmishers... Who were in terrain set up perfectly for them, against a party who hadn't really fought them before and didn't have much practice coordinating, and had a higher level leader type buffing them. And, while they could hit an exposed character hard, they still folded like tissue paper once the group decided to focus on them.

So it's certainly possible IMO to get your XP's worth from lower level guys. But probably not if you just take some guys in throw them into the encounter.