How many 18th level fighters could an 18th level fighter take out
- Thread starter DM-Rocco
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blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Mythusmage, that was simply wonderful
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Using the equipment given in the first post, one or two. Two 1ed fighters at the same time would kill d20 fighter with a single casualty. Two 1ed fighters would be killed by the d20 fighter if one started only after the other had died, but then the d20 would be too weak to defeat a third one.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Remember that 1st edition fighters can move and full attack (not that they get many attacks). Third Edition fighters can't. OTOH, 1st edition fighters roll initiative on d6s and have to reroll every round so they'll always go last.
DM-Rocco
Explorer
Well, Thanks for all the dating advice, but I am married
So, aside from the wise guys, and don't get me wrong, I found it humorous, I was serious and meant how many 1st editions 18th level characters would DIE (just to clarify) to an 18th level character under 3.5.
I wanted to know the power difference between a 1st edition character and a 3.5 edition character. There are fundamental differences between the two, some of the biggest are that a 1st edition fighter maxes out at 2 attacks per round and a 3.5 can get 4 per round without enhancements from things like haste.
I used the stock stats from the iconic character of Tordek since I had them on hand, but to be fair, I should have made them naked.
So, for those of you who are still reading up on this thread and are interested in the same thing, let's give them all a base stat of 10 across the boards (no wise cracks about how they would never make it to level 18 please) including the 3.5 level based stat increase and give each a long sword. For purposes of Initiative lets have each throw out the rules for Initiative and have them both smack each other at the exact same moment, giving us the best results in terms of cross over.
We will use 6 hit points for each die roll, the 3.5 will have 18 hit dice so a base hit points of 112 and of course both will be human and the 3.5 will take all non fighter feats in toughness for an extra 24 hit points and the 1.0 will have 9 hit dice so he will have 57 base hit points from hit dice + 27 for the +3 every level after 9th for a total of 82.
Of course by giving them only 10 in all stats we limit what makes the 3.5 character effective so we will have to do two tests, one when the character have all 10s and one where the 1.0 has all 15s and the 3.5 has all 13s so they will all have a fundamental +1 bonus.
10 stats
1.0
Str: 10, Int: 10, Wis:10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Chr: 10, AC:10, Hit points: 97, BAB (or THACO replacement) +17 (a 1.0 tops out at +17 to hit)
3.5
Str: 10, Int: 10, Wis:10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Chr: 10, AC:10, Hit points: 136, BAB (or THACO replacement) +20 Feats include 8 toughness feats, endurance, diehard, improved crit longsword, weapon focus longsword, weapon specialization longsword, greater weapon focus longsword, greater weapon specialization longsword, anything after that shouldn’t matter with such low stats.
3.5 stats
10 stats
1.0
Str: 15, Int: 15, Wis:15, Dex: 15, Con: 15, Chr: 15, AC:11, Hit points: 106, BAB (or THACO replacement) +18 (a 1.0 tops out at +17 to hit)
3.5
Str: 13, Int: 13, Wis:13, Dex: 13, Con: 13, Chr: 13, AC: 11/12, Hit points: 154, BAB (or THACO replacement) +21 Feats include 8 toughness feats, endurance, diehard, improved crit longsword, weapon focus longsword, weapon specialization longsword, add power attack, cleave and dodge
Okay, I'm late for a meeting, I'll check back and write more when I get back
So, aside from the wise guys, and don't get me wrong, I found it humorous, I was serious and meant how many 1st editions 18th level characters would DIE (just to clarify) to an 18th level character under 3.5.
I wanted to know the power difference between a 1st edition character and a 3.5 edition character. There are fundamental differences between the two, some of the biggest are that a 1st edition fighter maxes out at 2 attacks per round and a 3.5 can get 4 per round without enhancements from things like haste.
I used the stock stats from the iconic character of Tordek since I had them on hand, but to be fair, I should have made them naked.
So, for those of you who are still reading up on this thread and are interested in the same thing, let's give them all a base stat of 10 across the boards (no wise cracks about how they would never make it to level 18 please) including the 3.5 level based stat increase and give each a long sword. For purposes of Initiative lets have each throw out the rules for Initiative and have them both smack each other at the exact same moment, giving us the best results in terms of cross over.
We will use 6 hit points for each die roll, the 3.5 will have 18 hit dice so a base hit points of 112 and of course both will be human and the 3.5 will take all non fighter feats in toughness for an extra 24 hit points and the 1.0 will have 9 hit dice so he will have 57 base hit points from hit dice + 27 for the +3 every level after 9th for a total of 82.
Of course by giving them only 10 in all stats we limit what makes the 3.5 character effective so we will have to do two tests, one when the character have all 10s and one where the 1.0 has all 15s and the 3.5 has all 13s so they will all have a fundamental +1 bonus.
10 stats
1.0
Str: 10, Int: 10, Wis:10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Chr: 10, AC:10, Hit points: 97, BAB (or THACO replacement) +17 (a 1.0 tops out at +17 to hit)
3.5
Str: 10, Int: 10, Wis:10, Dex: 10, Con: 10, Chr: 10, AC:10, Hit points: 136, BAB (or THACO replacement) +20 Feats include 8 toughness feats, endurance, diehard, improved crit longsword, weapon focus longsword, weapon specialization longsword, greater weapon focus longsword, greater weapon specialization longsword, anything after that shouldn’t matter with such low stats.
3.5 stats
10 stats
1.0
Str: 15, Int: 15, Wis:15, Dex: 15, Con: 15, Chr: 15, AC:11, Hit points: 106, BAB (or THACO replacement) +18 (a 1.0 tops out at +17 to hit)
3.5
Str: 13, Int: 13, Wis:13, Dex: 13, Con: 13, Chr: 13, AC: 11/12, Hit points: 154, BAB (or THACO replacement) +21 Feats include 8 toughness feats, endurance, diehard, improved crit longsword, weapon focus longsword, weapon specialization longsword, add power attack, cleave and dodge
Okay, I'm late for a meeting, I'll check back and write more when I get back
DM-Rocco
Explorer
diaglo said:the 1ed guy is gonna put his best stat in str cuz he'll get a larger experience point bonus.
I assume your being facetious since they all have the same stats J
Assume they are all 18th level reguardless of XP.
Anyway, 1.0 character with 10s in all stats is going to do an average of 5 points of damage a swing with two attacks around missing on a roll of a 1 would hit 19 times out of 20 for a total of 95 hit points of damage in ten rounds.
A 3.5 fighter with all 10s is going to hit in the same manner but because of Critical hits in 3.5, and his improved crit with the long sword gives him 4 crits threats in 20 swings. A normal hit would do 5 from weapon damage and 4 from weapon specialization doing 9 hit points damage per hit and 18 per hit on a crit and he should easily make the threat confirmation rolls so average damage in 10 rounds with a longsword would be 197.
Oops, forgot that the 3.5 gets two more attacks and that they are at degrading effectiveness. Let’s see, the above results would still stand for the first two attacks even with the -5 to the secondary attacks so the 3rd and 4th attacks are at -10 and -15. At a +20 to hit even the 3rd attack would follow the same guide lines above while the 4th attack would miss 25% of the time and one less crit confirmation would be lost so over ten rounds the 3rd and 4th attacks would do 152 for a total of 349.
So, if I figured it out right, a 18th level 3.5 could kill 3 18th level 1.0s at the same time.
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DM-Rocco
Explorer
Now, if you really make use of the 3.5 rules and give the stats a bit of a raise and better feats, you get this:
Anyway, 1.0 character with 15s in all stats (so he gets a +1 bonus on damage and hits) is going to do an average of 6 points of damage a swing with two attacks, on a roll of a 1 would hit 19 times out of 20 for a total of 114 hit points of damage in ten rounds.
A 3.5 fighter with all 13s (also getting another +1 on all ability rolls) is going to hit in the same manner but because of Critical hits in 3.5, and his improved crit with the long sword gives him 4 crits threats in 20 swings. A normal hit would do 6 from weapon damage and 4 from weapon specialization doing 10 hit points damage per hit and 20 per hit on a crit and he should easily make the threat confirmation rolls so average damage in 10 rounds with a long sword would be 210 for the first and second attacks. Oops, forgot power attack. At 18th level with a total attack bonus of +21 you can power attack for 11 and not have it effect your 1st and 2nd attacks so that will actually be 21 hit points of damage per hit and 42 on a crit for 483 just for the 1st and 2nd attacks over ten rounds.
For the 3rd and 4th attacks you miss 25% and 50% of the time respectively. You would crit 4 more time and for arguments sake you would miss the confirmation 2 times. That should be another 315 of damage from your 3rd and 4th attacks, do 152 for a total of 349. not including possible cleave attacks for a total of 798 in ten rounds.
So, a 18th level 3.5 using the better feats of 3.5 (from the source books, not obscure supplement books) could kill about 7 or 8 18th level 1.0s before dieing himself.
I think my math is right, but that is why I am posting this, so others may offer their advice.
Anyone care to figure out what would happen if they used Two Handed Swords?
Anyway, 1.0 character with 15s in all stats (so he gets a +1 bonus on damage and hits) is going to do an average of 6 points of damage a swing with two attacks, on a roll of a 1 would hit 19 times out of 20 for a total of 114 hit points of damage in ten rounds.
A 3.5 fighter with all 13s (also getting another +1 on all ability rolls) is going to hit in the same manner but because of Critical hits in 3.5, and his improved crit with the long sword gives him 4 crits threats in 20 swings. A normal hit would do 6 from weapon damage and 4 from weapon specialization doing 10 hit points damage per hit and 20 per hit on a crit and he should easily make the threat confirmation rolls so average damage in 10 rounds with a long sword would be 210 for the first and second attacks. Oops, forgot power attack. At 18th level with a total attack bonus of +21 you can power attack for 11 and not have it effect your 1st and 2nd attacks so that will actually be 21 hit points of damage per hit and 42 on a crit for 483 just for the 1st and 2nd attacks over ten rounds.
For the 3rd and 4th attacks you miss 25% and 50% of the time respectively. You would crit 4 more time and for arguments sake you would miss the confirmation 2 times. That should be another 315 of damage from your 3rd and 4th attacks, do 152 for a total of 349. not including possible cleave attacks for a total of 798 in ten rounds.
So, a 18th level 3.5 using the better feats of 3.5 (from the source books, not obscure supplement books) could kill about 7 or 8 18th level 1.0s before dieing himself.
I think my math is right, but that is why I am posting this, so others may offer their advice.
Anyone care to figure out what would happen if they used Two Handed Swords?
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