How many 1st level Fighers can an 11th Level Fighter Kill?

It's not surprising that that 10 level 1 fighters win out on the 1 level 11 fighter. There's a lot more effective hp there, especially counting 2nd wind. The 8 level 1 fighters around actually do more DPR than the single level 11 fighter. (except on the action surge turn). The important factor with them is that they can theoretically start losing DPR after a few die.
 
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Gladius Legis

Adventurer
I'd be interested to see what an 11th-level Paladin (sword and shield, Dueling style) can do vs. that same mob of 1st-level Fighters.

The Paladin (attacking 2x, +9) would be dealing with each hit:
1d8 (longsword)
+1d8 (Improved Divine Smite)
+1d4 (have him cast Divine Favor for good measure)
+7 (STR+Dueling)
= 18.5 average damage per hit. Moreover, on damage dice, the Paladin would have to roll 1,1,1 or 1,1,2 to NOT be a one-hit kill. So he'll get one-hit kills far more often than not.

For simplicity's sake let's keep any Oath-specific stuff out of this, just as a baseline for the class. Obviously, Crown (Spirit Guardians) and Conquest (Aura of Conquest + Fear) would fare much better than Paladins of other Oaths.
 
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dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Rapier + Shield. Dueling Style. Hunter's Mark. Horde Breaker. Hex an enemy. Whirlwind Attack every round. Use the horde breaker attack on your hexed enemy if it's not dead. If it is then pick an enemy you already hit. Max Dex. 14-16 con, you pick.

He will use level 3 cure wounds provided there are 4 or fewer enemies left and he is below 40 hp. He will recast hunter's mark with the other spells as needed.
Max dex won't help AC beyond +2 anyway since Ranger's are limited to medium armor. I think you'll find the lower AC will hurt quite a bit (max 15 + 2 dex +2 shield would be 19). With Hunter's Mark and Hex both being bonus actions and concentration spells, Hunter's Mark would be better. Of course, with either one you can only select one enemy and after he is dead, only change to a new target via the bonus action if he was never hit and lost concentration. But since Ranger's lack proficiency in Con saves, he will lose concentration 30% of the time (need 7 or better to save with CON 16) with each hit, with an average of 2.8 hits per round he will lose concentration more often than not on each round.

He'll never use cure wounds because this is an endless supply of opponents, thus never 4 or fewer. The bonus action each round would be used with Hunter's Mark or to move it to a new enemy.

The biggest benefits are Whirlwind Attack followed by Horde Breaker (allowing 9 attacks per round in total). Even with just d8 + 7, nearly each hit will have about a 50/50 chance to kill.

I'd be interested to see what an 11th-level Paladin (sword and shield, Dueling style) can do vs. that same mob of 1st-level Fighters.

The Paladin (attacking 2x, +9) would be dealing with each hit:
1d8 (longsword)
+1d8 (Improved Divine Smite)
+1d4 (have him cast Divine Favor for good measure)
+7 (STR+Dueling)
= 18.5 average damage per hit. Moreover, on damage dice, the Paladin would have to roll 1,1,1 or 1,1,2 to NOT be a one-hit kill. So he'll get one-hit kills far more often than not.

For simplicity's sake let's keep any Oath-specific stuff out of this, just as a baseline for the class. Obviously, Crown (Spirit Guardians) and Conquest (Aura of Conquest + Fear) would fare much better than Paladins of other Oaths.
Great killing potential with a 98.4375% chance to kill with each hit. Keep in mind 2,1,1, and 1,2,1 also result in no kill. Either way, it is only 4 out of 256 to not kill. But the limit of two attacks per rounds is significant.

Of course, with Divine Favor also being a Concentration spell and no proficiency in Con saves, he'd suffer the same problem the Ranger has with Hunter's Mark. Even without it, he has 90.625% kill chance.
 
I choose dex with the ranger because rangers tend to favor dex over strength and dex adds more initiative. Going first is very important in this style of combat
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
I choose dex with the ranger because rangers tend to favor dex over strength and dex adds more initiative. Going first is very important in this style of combat
Actually, it isn't that big a difference. After the first turn, combat is always you-go-they-go.

Anyway, with loses replacing deaths each turn here are the results:

A DEX 20, CON 16, 103 HP, AC 19, rapier-and-shield-wielding Hunting-Mark-Horde-Breaking-Whirlwind-Attacking 11th-level Ranger averages:

Without enemy flanking: 15.55 kills (sd 5.01). Complete kills (all 8 targets) in one round: 0.635%

With flanking: 9.6 (sd 3.45). Complete kills (all 8 targets) in one round: 0.365%


And, in case you want to know, without replacing the 8 original fighters, the above ranger defeats them all 99.85% of the time (approximately ;) ). It is only about 1 in 650 fights or so he would lose.
 
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dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Well, from the 100,000 simulations I ran, the average kills before the "Champion" falls was 7.90 with a standard deviation of 2.84 kills. A maximum of 22 kills (9 times) and 26 times with no kills at all.

I don't know how you handled initiative, but I gave the Champion a +1 modifier and the 1st-level fighters no modifier, with the Champion also going first in the case of ties. I also gave the Champion the 103 hp average and randomly added the second wind if hp dropped below 82 (since his max boost would add 21, returning him to full). The action surge was added the first round. Like you, replacements moved in when kills happened so the Champion was always attacked 8 times per round.
Also, in the default OP scenario, the champion will lose 9.5% of the time (roughly) against 8 targets not allowing for replacement of their losses.
 

Oh, and the rule of the 11th level fighter not having any magic items does not seem reasonable for 11th level. Like, while this verges upon the talked-to-death-then-back-to-life-then-talked-to-death-again "fighters can't have nice things" debate, I feel like the game's default assumption is that an 11th level fighter would have at least a magic weapon and magic armor, and if not a magic shield, then the magic weapon or armor would most likely have an ability, plus some minor magic items you could replace with potions of healing for the sake of simplicity. (I am pretty sure the "character wealth by level" table, vague as it is in 5E, allows for an 11th level fighter to "buy" all of these things using the "magic item value" table, as ULTRA VAGUE as that is in 5E.)
Somebody else already pointed out that the dueling style and a shield, do in fact stack. But I also want to point out that the default assumption for 5E is no magic items. While in play, it is likely that an 11 level fighter has some sort of magical item, there is nothing in the design of the game that assumes that is the case. The default game also does not assume that you can buy magical items. So I think the limitation is plausible enough. Trying to account for for the addition of magic items just makes things too complicated since they're are so many magic items in the game.
 

Stalker0

Adventurer
Somebody else already pointed out that the dueling style and a shield, do in fact stack. But I also want to point out that the default assumption for 5E is no magic items. While in play, it is likely that an 11 level fighter has some sort of magical item, there is nothing in the design of the game that assumes that is the case. The default game also does not assume that you can buy magical items. So I think the limitation is plausible enough. Trying to account for for the addition of magic items just makes things too complicated since they're are so many magic items in the game.
You got it. I did seriously consider magic items like weapon or armor, but ultimately wanted to see what the fighter could do with basic gear
 

Gladius Legis

Adventurer
Of course, with Divine Favor also being a Concentration spell and no proficiency in Con saves, he'd suffer the same problem the Ranger has with Hunter's Mark. Even without it, he has 90.625% kill chance.
True, although in the Paladin's case he's got Aura of Protection CHA bonus to the CON save to partially make up for that.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
To see how they would fair against an assumed group of soldiers or guards, use the actual “guard” stat block in the game (since actual fighters are more powerful) maybe giving one of them max hp as the leader. To shake it up more, throw in a veteran as a leader.
YES the number of fighters is not even interesting to me
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Great stuff here. Would absolutely love to see the simulation using an 11th level wizard at the center.
Also curious as to how a 20th level fighter fares. I’m guessing they could handle at least 30 on average.
 

LordEntrails

Adventurer
Great stuff here. Would absolutely love to see the simulation using an 11th level wizard at the center.
Melee or ranged? And wouldn't any group of mooks just grapple the wizard? Who would be dumb enough to let him get off more than one fireball etc?
 
Melee or ranged? And wouldn't any group of mooks just grapple the wizard? Who would be dumb enough to let him get off more than one fireball etc?
Grabbing just keeps you from running away in 5e, they'd have to immobilize both his hands if the spell had S components, or gag him to stop V components, but those aren't things the Grappled condition covers.
There's no OA for casting in melee and no reduction in effectiveness unless the spell attacks AC.

5e doesn't evoke the classic game in /all/ instances. ;(
 
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Stalker0

Adventurer
Since the topic seems popular, I wanted to do more scenarios, such as wizards vs wizards. It’s a a greater challenge to assess for sure.
 
Since the topic seems popular, I wanted to do more scenarios, such as wizards vs wizards. It’s a a greater challenge to assess for sure.
To start with, try the visiting alumni vs the graduating class, but, for the sake of simplicity - almost as simple as the mob of fighters vs the champion - limit everyone to just casting Magic Missile. See how that goes.

...then add shield...
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
True, although in the Paladin's case he's got Aura of Protection CHA bonus to the CON save to partially make up for that.
Excellent point! I had forgotten about that.

Since the topic seems popular, I wanted to do more scenarios, such as wizards vs wizards. It’s a a greater challenge to assess for sure.
To start with, try the visiting alumni vs the graduating class, but, for the sake of simplicity - almost as simple as the mob of fighters vs the champion - limit everyone to just casting Magic Missile. See how that goes.

...then add shield...
I did a 1st-level Fighter vs a 1st-level Wizard before. If I recall correctly, the Wizard has the edge. I will look around to see if I can find the file... it was months ago.

As far as other scenarios go, I can do most of them if we keep the parameters at least slightly simple. If you have a request, let me know and I'll get to them when I can. :)
 

dnd4vr

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
Great stuff here. Would absolutely love to see the simulation using an 11th level wizard at the center.
Also curious as to how a 20th level fighter fares. I’m guessing they could handle at least 30 on average.
I did this quickly, so I am not sure I got all the improvements from 11th to 20th, but if I did the average is roughly 24.78 with SD of about 5.44 for 100,000 simulations (this is without flanking).
 

Stalker0

Adventurer
I did this quickly, so I am not sure I got all the improvements from 11th to 20th, but if I did the average is roughly 24.78 with SD of about 5.44 for 100,000 simulations (this is without flanking).
The big stuff:

1) 20 con, so more hp, on top of more hp!
2) Slightly higher crit modifier
3) +2 more attack, and one extra attack every round.
4) The big one....heals 10 damage every round once at half. That is by far the biggest factor I'm sure. I would also assume that he saves his second wind until much later to milk this advantage.
5) One more action surge.
 

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