D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[BryonD]

It's not a moving of goal posts. It's an example of my hypothesis: that innovations from video games that borrow heavily from or are heavily inspired by TTRPGs are likely to be more palatable to fans of TTRPGs. Furthermore, my hypothesis was posed in relation to your supposition that video games heavily borrowing from or being heavily inspired by TTRPGs was irrelevant to the discussion.

If you don't see the distinction then your conclusions are going to be limited.

 

[MechaPilot]

If you don't see the distinction then your conclusions are going to be limited.

To which distinction are you referring?

 

[Umbran]

Was wondering about that myself. Also it claims that there are 126 voters...but by the numbers of votes for each, there are 1,075 [atm].

1075? I think you have a typo there.

Currently, I see 163 voters, and 213 votes. The poll allows one to select multiple boxes, and thus vote *both*.

 

[steeldragons]

1075? I think you have a typo there.

Currently, I see 163 voters, and 213 votes. The poll allows one to select multiple boxes, and thus vote *both*.

Probably a typo and bad math...I think it was something like mid-60's (pro) and high-70's (don't care) at the time...so, like 66 +79 would have gotten me 5...carry the 1...145. Yeah. Definitely a typo and bad math. Was probably thinking 10 + whatever (7 apparently)...and typed 10...7...5

But have since noted it mentioned/was not aware at the time it was allowing multi-choice. So that'll throw everything off/make it meaningless.

 

[BryonD]

To which distinction are you referring?

There are basically two points. Your comments have indicated that you agree with both of them.

First: The history of reflexively calling 4e "video-gamey" being fighting word is stupid and counter-productive. My further assertion that this is highly ironic because it is being praised now is something I think you agree with, even though we agree the irony need not apply to you.

Second: TTRPGs and video games can and should share all kinds of ideas BUT their are limitations and exceptions to this general guideline. There are substantial exceptions in both directions.

Here is the distinction. The conversation I joined was not about the general idea. It was very much specific to healing. You have made the from someone specifically using eating cheese wheels as an example to saying that moving from cheese wheels to magic potions is not a moving of goal posts.

As far as any comment I've made, this is moving the goal posts to another stadium.

 

[MechaPilot]

There are basically two points. Your comments have indicated that you agree with both of them.

First: The history of reflexively calling 4e "video-gamey" being fighting word is stupid and counter-productive. My further assertion that this is highly ironic because it is being praised now is something I think you agree with, even though we agree the irony need not apply to you.

Second: TTRPGs and video games can and should share all kinds of ideas BUT their are limitations and exceptions to this general guideline. There are substantial exceptions in both directions.

Here is the distinction. The conversation I joined was not about the general idea. It was very much specific to healing. You have made the from someone specifically using eating cheese wheels as an example to saying that moving from cheese wheels to magic potions is not a moving of goal posts.

As far as any comment I've made, this is moving the goal posts to another stadium.

First, thank you for clarifying.

I do think we are having issues of scale here (or of elevation, or however one wants to say it). The examples that I gave were specific to healing related video game innovations, and their palatability in TTRPGS. However, despite both of us talking about healing concepts from video games I think I was being more general in nature than you were. I think that's why you considered me to be moving goal posts when I was not.

 

[Rygar]

First, thank you for clarifying.

I do think we are having issues of scale here (or of elevation, or however one wants to say it). The examples that I gave were specific to healing related video game innovations, and their palatability in TTRPGS. However, despite both of us talking about healing concepts from video games I think I was being more general in nature than you were. I think that's why you considered me to be moving goal posts when I was not.

I think we need to be careful in what we're terming as "Innovation" here, there are a number of facets of modern video games which aren't commonly regarded as innovative or desirable by a pretty substantial number of video gamers. Healing is high amongst those, auto-regenerating health is a common point of contention amongst video gamers. Many video gamers feel video games have become far too easy, with "Hard" and "Impossible" now frequently being described as "The new normal". We can see evidence of this in the high praise and decent sales of difficult and unforgiving games like the Dark Souls series, or the "Iron man" mode that appears in games like Fallout and XCom.

Even in video games many things commonly argued about here are even more commonly and much more aggressively argued in video game forums.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Even in video games many things commonly argued about here are even more commonly and much more aggressively argued in video game forums.

At the same time, you don't typically see people arguing that a game that lacks an "Iron Man" mode, or the pronounced difficulty of Dark Souls etc., as "not a video game" or not being valid contributions to their particular genre, whatever that might be. The Warlord--and a few other developments of 4e, whether you consider them "innovations" or not--are often so thoroughly disliked that people will go out of their way, will openly admit that they would deny themselves things they like, in order to see these things don't become part of the game.

I'd also point out that, although I (and someone else, IIRC) was the one who mentioned cheese wheel healing, I was not the one who introduced the comparison to video games. Someone else, Imaro, specifically brought up video games, and their depiction of HP loss through physical wounds, as...well, I'm not sure. The actual statement was, more or less, "video games give gamers the idea that HP are defined as physical wounds, so the debate among TTRPG players (and D&D players specifically) may be meaningless to most people," with an IMO extremely strong implication of "thus we should use the common video game conception if we want to get more new players, so it will be familiar to them." I rebutted the idea that video games purely represent HP as wounds and healing as wound-removal with the very plain fact that two of the most popular games of the last decade allow HP restoration based on eating food. Skyrim has sold over 20 million copies, and even if half of them were duplicate purchases or bought by people who hate the concept of "cheese wheel healing," that's still 10 million people who are completely okay with the concept of eating food to restore HP, even when those HP were explicitly lost by having a sword swung at you and showing blood obscuring your vision.

Basically, Imaro's idea (as I understood it--not necessarily as it was meant!) was, "Video games are creating this perception of wounds as purely physical, and restored either by physical healing or magic." And my rebuttal was, "Given how two *very* popular games treat healing, I'm not sure this is actually a perception being created by games."

I, personally, think that D&D can stand to learn a lot from video game mechanics, tropes, and execution. At the same time, calling any tabletop game "an MMO on paper" or "videogamey" is pretty transparently an insult--it's just a different way of saying "it's not a tabletop game anymore."

 

[Flamestrike]

Doesnt it already exist?

BM fighter with (commanders strike, rally and maneuvering attack), Defense style, Inspiring leader feat, paladin levels for Auras, maybe a splash of bard for bardic inspiration and expertise in charisma skills.

Works a treat.

 

[Hussar]

Positioning still matters in 5E due to opportunity attacks and especially cover. Slides don't really exist (unless the DMG Shove-Aside counts? I didn't play 4E much so am not sure if there's more nuance needed) but Battlemasters and Barbarians are quite good at the Push game. You can use it to escape opportunity attacks, to grant melee advantage and impose disadvantage, to disarm (e.g. the Wand of Orcus), and to control enemy movement. You could potentially use it to stop spellcasting even though the PHB doesn't have explicit rules for what constitutes the "free use of one hand" as required by Somantic spellcasting--but as a DM I'd say that two successful Athletics checks definitely lets you grapple both hands.

Did Pushing have more of an effect in 4E?

The big difference is, with a 4e warlord I can get someone else to do all those things. THAT is the difference and why I complain about the lack of tactical complexity in 5e.