D&D 5E How many is too many? [Skills n' stuff]

[steeldragons]

I don't have anything much to say here, but please note that many of your quotes are mis-attributed to me.

EEK! Apologies. I'll go edit that. Thanks.

 

[TwoSix]

I do rather like this. Though, as I said (though I can understand that it might not have been clear) the baked in "skills" would really just be "Class features" (or tricks or whatever they wanted to call them) without being, properly "skills."

Or you just say, for Basic, that you roll ability checks, and you get a +4 if you're doing "Class-y" things. Fighter-y things, Thief-y things, etc. Any group that likes Basic is going to know what that means. Plus, then it's "Rulings, not Rules"; ergo, bonus.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm of the mind that there should be a hard-coded wide-reaching basic skill list that's shorter than the one we have, and an open-ended list of subspecialties for those who want to go there.

In other words, the best of both worlds.

 

[Sunseeker]

I prefer a shorter, more generic skill list, with classes having specific bonuses to sub-skills.
So a swashbuckler might get a +2 bonus to swim checks. So their skill list would look like:
Athletics (Str): 5
Swim +2
(making their swim check 7, but other athletics checks only 5)
Or perhaps they know a lot about sailing, so they get a bonus to Maritime History checks. Giving them:
History (Int): 3
Maritime: +2

Rogues might see special bonuses to a lot of sub-areas, Thievery: Pickpocketing, Stealth: Hide & Move Silently(I can rationalize how those two are different in certain situations), Dungeoneering: Trap Finding/Use/Disabling, Streetwise: Dark Alleys, etc...

This way we don't have super-massive skill lists where only a few classes get to put points into a few lines, but classes that emphasize skill use get to add in specifics, and people who want a lot of skills aren't limited to only a few, likewise people who don't want lots of skills don't have to browse through a huge skill list just to find their Ride score.

 

[steeldragons]

I prefer a shorter, more generic skill list, with classes having specific bonuses to sub-skills.
So a swashbuckler might get a +2 bonus to swim checks. So their skill list would look like:
Athletics (Str): 5
Swim +2
(making their swim check 7, but other athletics checks only 5)
Or perhaps they know a lot about sailing, so they get a bonus to Maritime History checks. Giving them:
History (Int): 3
Maritime: +2

Rogues might see special bonuses to a lot of sub-areas, Thievery: Pickpocketing, Stealth: Hide & Move Silently(I can rationalize how those two are different in certain situations), Dungeoneering: Trap Finding/Use/Disabling, Streetwise: Dark Alleys, etc...

This way we don't have super-massive skill lists where only a few classes get to put points into a few lines, but classes that emphasize skill use get to add in specifics, and people who want a lot of skills aren't limited to only a few, likewise people who don't want lots of skills don't have to browse through a huge skill list just to find their Ride score.

I'm likin' this too. This would be more for a "Standard" type game, I'm assuming, right? Since I don't think a "Basic" thief would get 4 or 5 skills with 7-10 special/sub-skills.

Or are you saying they would/should? I mean, after all, a B/X/BECM or 1e thief gets...what?...7 or 8? built into the class from day 1.

So...just to run with this for a second...
A Fighter would get:
"Basic game": Combat/Expertise/Mastery/Damage/Extra-whatever-they-call-it Dice for extra damage on successful hits. Athletics and Intimidate are automatic to the class (offer a +x bonus to rolls with the relevant ability).

"Basic +Background game": Extra Dice- as above. Athletics & Intimidate. 2 more skills stipulated by the Background chosen.
--a Fighter: Mercenary gets you Lore: Warfare and a bump to your Intimidate (...or whatever).

"Standard game": Extra Dice- for damage/to hit/apply to AC (parry)/grapple or trip, decided each round. Athletics + something specific/sub-skill from Specialty/Theme, and Some other specific skill from Theme/Specialty. 2 more from Background, but they can take what's built in or select themselves.

"Advanced Game": Extra Dice-usable for a full suite of individual maneuvers, decided by the player each round. Access to all Specialty skills, individually chosen. Access to all Background skills, individually chosen.

Would something like that be good with everybody/most people?...or am I totally not following/getting the suggestions/idea?

 

[mlund]

I still think they need to run with their idea of not calling these things "skills" anymore and making a break towards the more open-ended space of something akin to "talents." The Standard game gives you some germane Talents from your Class and a set from your Background and when you do something you are talented in you get to roll your bonus die. The Basic Game gives you a static modifier based on level and outlines one or two more broad instructions built into your class alone - something like: "At level 1 you have a +2 modifier to Dexterity Checks. This increases to +3 at level Blah Blah Blah"

Better yet, it could just be written out in a sentence: "You have a +2 bonus to all checks to hide, deceive others, ferret out secrets, and disarm traps. This increases to ..." and likewise the Wizard could have "You have a +2 bonus to any check to recall matters of magic, history, legends, and lore ..." and the Cleric "to recall matters of the gods as well as their servants and enemies, to negotiate in good faith, and to see through deceptions," while the Fighter might have his bonus "to any checks to perform stunts, feats of strength, and pass tests of endurance."

These would be enough to let Basic characters keep up with the functions of characters using the Skill/Talent system without rolling extra dice or picking out a suite of abilities to track.

- Marty Lund

 

[steeldragons]

Better yet, it could just be written out in a sentence: "You have a +2 bonus to all checks to hide, deceive others, ferret out secrets, and disarm traps. This increases to ..." and likewise the Wizard could have "You have a +2 bonus to any check to recall matters of magic, history, legends, and lore ..." and the Cleric "to recall matters of the gods as well as their servants and enemies, to negotiate in good faith, and to see through deceptions," while the Fighter might have his bonus "to any checks to perform stunts, feats of strength, and pass tests of endurance."

These would be enough to let Basic characters keep up with the functions of characters using the Skill/Talent system without rolling extra dice or picking out a suite of abilities to track.

This might be my favorite idea yet. Could it really be that clean and simple?

 

[mlund]

This might be my favorite idea yet. Could it really be that clean and simple?

Based on historical experience in games much more reliant on Talent/Skill systems than D&D has: Yes.

Let me amend that:

Very yes.

- Marty Lund

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm likin' this too. This would be more for a "Standard" type game, I'm assuming, right? Since I don't think a "Basic" thief would get 4 or 5 skills with 7-10 special/sub-skills.

Or are you saying they would/should? I mean, after all, a B/X/BECM or 1e thief gets...what?...7 or 8? built into the class from day 1.

I would think a "Basic" game would be limited to the 'general' skill list ala 4e with the big headers like "Religion" or "Arcana" and no sub-areas.

So...just to run with this for a second...
A Fighter would get:
"Basic game": Combat/Expertise/Mastery/Damage/Extra-whatever-they-call-it Dice for extra damage on successful hits. Athletics and Intimidate are automatic to the class (offer a +x bonus to rolls with the relevant ability).

"Basic +Background game": Extra Dice- as above. Athletics & Intimidate. 2 more skills stipulated by the Background chosen.
--a Fighter: Mercenary gets you Lore: Warfare and a bump to your Intimidate (...or whatever).

"Standard game": Extra Dice- for damage/to hit/apply to AC (parry)/grapple or trip, decided each round. Athletics + something specific/sub-skill from Specialty/Theme, and Some other specific skill from Theme/Specialty. 2 more from Background, but they can take what's built in or select themselves.

"Advanced Game": Extra Dice-usable for a full suite of individual maneuvers, decided by the player each round. Access to all Specialty skills, individually chosen. Access to all Background skills, individually chosen.

Would something like that be good with everybody/most people?...or am I totally not following/getting the suggestions/idea?

The only thing I would change would be that skill-list development should grow in a logical fashion. Including more freedom but also holding to the base.

So, a Basic Fighter would get:
Athletics and Intimidate

A Basic+background Fighter would get:
Athletics, Intimidate, two skills from background of choice(maybe he was once a criminal, so Stealth and Thievery)
--At this point we're still working with the big, basic skills.

A Standard Fighter would get
Athletics +1 sub-skill, Intimidate +1 sub-skill, two background skills and maybe a 5th skill of choice.
-sub skill lists would be limited to 2, maybe 3 possible choices.

An Advanced Fighter would get
Athletics +2 sub-skills, Intimidate +2 sub-skills, two background skills and maybe 2 more of your choice.
-sub skills lists would be longer and more specific, with room to allow players to make up their own sub-skills, such as:
Knowledge, History: Martial ranks, or Intimidate: Browbeating, the fighter gains a +2 bonus only when he's berating a person, as opposed to just looking big and scary.

In this way, each version of the fighter grows more complex, but retains the same "core" or "base" that identify it as a fighter or fighter-variant.

 

[LostSoul]

Better yet, it could just be written out in a sentence: "You have a +2 bonus to all checks to hide, deceive others, ferret out secrets, and disarm traps. This increases to ..." and likewise the Wizard could have "You have a +2 bonus to any check to recall matters of magic, history, legends, and lore ..." and the Cleric "to recall matters of the gods as well as their servants and enemies, to negotiate in good faith, and to see through deceptions," while the Fighter might have his bonus "to any checks to perform stunts, feats of strength, and pass tests of endurance."

Yep, I like it. Immersive, simple, no "button-pushing", resolution is wrapped up in PCs actions instead of a chunk of text in the book, perfectly fitting for the class or character, and other stuff!