How many modifier types SHOULD there be?

[JohnSnow]

Okay, so this one was brought up elsewhere.

I do think, however, that the abundance of modifiers has gotten out of hand. I've said before (and I'll repeat myself till someone acknowledges the brilliance of my observation) that one of the best things they did design-wise in 3.x was the concept of named bonuses. Unfortunately, one of the dumbest things they've done is let the number of different named bonuses grow out of hand.

I agree with this completely. And one of the things I think we need to do to restore the game to rationality is to limit the number of modifiers that can be in play. I propose (somewhat arbitrarily) limiting the modifiers available substantially.

A few modifiers is cool and flavorful. Too many and the game becomes reduced to a bookkeeping problem. If you can nail the right number (and provide good hardware to handle it - I'm looking at YOU Fiery Dragon guys...), then utilizing them (or counteracting negative ones) becomes fun.

So, what's the sweet spot?

I'll get the ball rolling with my suggestions. First, we need to nail down categories:

Ability (each)
Melee Attack
Missile Attack
Defense/Armor Class
Hit Points
Initiative
Skill (each)
Save (each)
Movement

Then we need bonus types...

Somebody want to take a crack at those?

 

[Abraxas]

Here are the Bonus Types I can think of off hand

Armor
Circumstance
Competence
Deflection
Dodge
Enhancement
Insight
Luck
Morale
Natural Armor
Profane
Sacred
Shield
Unnamed

Do we need all of them - I'm not sure . . .

Now you just need to set what each type you would keep represents and roll all similar types into one category - and then decide how you want stacking to work (all stack, all different stack, or some stack and some don't )

If I were to pare down the list, and decide which could affect what category, and how you can get each type of bonus in game, it would look something like this. Different bonuses would stack, like bonuses would not except for where noted

Armor - Link to actual armor worn and Conjuration (force) spells - sort of a passive defense - affects Defense/Armor class (would require some changes to spell lists)

Circumstance -combine current Circumstance, Competence, Insight, Dodge bonuses and allow them to stack freely with the note that you can't use them when flat footed - affects Defense/Armor class, Initiative, Skills (each)

Deflection - link to Evocation (force) spells - sort of an active defense - affects Defense/Armor class (would require some changes to spell lists)

Divine - combine current Profane and Sacred - tied to (evil) and (good) spells respectively and only allow one or the other in effect at any one time - affects Melee Attack, Missile Attack, Saves (each)

Enhancement - link this bonus to Transmutation school of magic - affects Abilities, Items, Movement

Luck - affects Melee Attack, Missile Attack, Saves (each), Skills (each)

Morale - Link to Enchantment (mind affecting) school of magic - affects Melee Attack, Missile Attack, Saves (each)

Natural Armor - Link to physical toughness or size of a creature - affects Defense/Armor class

Shield - Link to actual shield used and Conjuration (force) spells - sort of a passive defense - affects Defense/Armor class (would require some changes to spell lists)

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Oooh. I'll have to get back to this tonight.

 

[Psion]

Really, it seems to me that the only thing that gets an excessive amount of modifiers slathered on is AC.

Other than that, I am having trouble seeing it, rarely seeing more than 3 types of modifiers on most things.

 

[technophile]

There are several other bonuses that apply to abilities:
Size bonus (from Enlarge person and others)
Inherent bonus (from Wish spells, tomes, etc.)

 

[Scribble]

I'm not sure I see a problem with the amount of bonus types out there. Unless I just don't know about a whole host of types that have been added?

 

[Endur]

Armor-- keep it
Circumstance -- delete it
Competence -- delete it
Deflection -- delete it
Dodge -- delete it
Enhancement -- keep it
Insight -- delete it
Luck -- delete it
Morale -- delete it
Natural Armor -- delete it
Profane -- delete it
Sacred -- delete it
Shield -- keep it
Unnamed -- keep it

That would leave us: Armor, Shield, Enhancement, and Unnamed. That would be a very workable system (essentially 1e).

 

[Storm Raven]

Armor-- keep it
Circumstance -- delete it
Competence -- delete it
Deflection -- delete it
Dodge -- delete it
Enhancement -- keep it
Insight -- delete it
Luck -- delete it
Morale -- delete it
Natural Armor -- delete it
Profane -- delete it
Sacred -- delete it
Shield -- keep it
Unnamed -- keep it

That would leave us: Armor, Shield, Enhancement, and Unnamed. That would be a very workable system (essentially 1e).

So, the bonus from bless would stack with the bonus from [/i]inspire courage[/i]?

 

[Plane Sailing]

The three simplest routes I can see are either

a) nothing stacks, everything overlaps.

b) everything stacks

c) severely limited set of options (e.g. magic, natural(as a result of size change etc), equipment(e.g. armour)

I think (b) would be the simplest option, but it would get completely crazy very quickly - so perhaps it would work if there was an absolute cap on the total (which could be derived from lots of small bonuses or one big bonus - but that would probably mean re-balancing the cost of buff items for starters, since all buffs would be euqally valuable).

Tricky to get a good, workable solution though.

 

[technophile]

I would go with option b, but then limit the bonuses, just set a cap based off of character level.
I'd guess it should be between 1/2 to 1/4 of level.