How many nobles to screw in a kingdom?

[Azrael Nightstar]

Hi all, I'm doing a bit of worldbuilding and have hit a bit of a snag in my knowledge. Namely, I'm trying to figure out what smaller feudal segments to divide my nations into, who rules those segments, and what their relationship is to each other. I have a vague idea of how such a system should look (more important nobles owe allegiance directly to the King, lesser ones are mostly sworn to dukes or earls, etc.) but am rather fuzzy on the details, and haven't had much luck finding info on these specific issues. I'm looking for advice on this from someone(s) with more expertise than I, or even if someone could point me in the direction of a better resource than I've been able to search-fu up, that would be grand.

Examples of what kind of info I seek: How many upper-echelon nobles are average/reasonable? What would their mix look like (ie, how many dukes, earls, counts, etc.)? What levels of "lesser noble" are likely to be sworn to which levels of "higher nobles"? How many such allegiances are those "higher nobles" likely to have? What "lower" nobles would be sworn directly to the King and under what circumstances?

Any info on the subject will likely be useful, but that should give you an idea of the kinds of questions I'm having.

PS: first post, figured I'd make it a substantial one

 

[Tonguez]

Hi all, I'm doing a bit of worldbuilding and have hit a bit of a snag in my knowledge. Namely, I'm trying to figure out what smaller feudal segments to divide my nations into, who rules those segments, and what their relationship is to each other. I have a vague idea of how such a system should look (more important nobles owe allegiance directly to the King, lesser ones are mostly sworn to dukes or earls, etc.) but am rather fuzzy on the details, and haven't had much luck finding info on these specific issues. I'm looking for advice on this from someone(s) with more expertise than I, or even if someone could point me in the direction of a better resource than I've been able to search-fu up, that would be grand.

Examples of what kind of info I seek: How many upper-echelon nobles are average/reasonable? What would their mix look like (ie, how many dukes, earls, counts, etc.)? What levels of "lesser noble" are likely to be sworn to which levels of "higher nobles"? How many such allegiances are those "higher nobles" likely to have? What "lower" nobles would be sworn directly to the King and under what circumstances?

Any info on the subject will likely be useful, but that should give you an idea of the kinds of questions I'm having.

PS: first post, figured I'd make it a substantial one

This isn't so easy to answer as it depends on a lot of different factors with the two primary factors being Wealth Genration (Land holdings = the amount of revenue a Noble can generate) and Military Duty (ie capacity to Defend said Landholdings). In less developed socieites land holdings were small and the Lords territopry might only be a village and surrounding forest. In more developed areas with better food production the Land holding might also be larger. Intermarriage and multiple also makes the whole system very convoluted so a single person might be an Earl, a Viscount and a Duke depending on the lands they hold or have inherited

Anyway

Dukes hold title in their own right and as they were primarily Military Commanders they have the right to raise an army. The title is second to the royalty (and in most cases Duke is a royal title).

Marquis is a count in a less stable border region (Marches) and thus had the right to raise an army to defend it
Counts were generally administrators of more settled 'countys' and were often orginally granted lands by the Monarch and owed loyalty to him.


Barons the word just means warrior and was any one granted manorial lands by the Monarch (or even a Duke) to whom they held a duty of service


In the UK there are currently only 5 Duke titles (with Lancaster being held by the reigning monarch)

 

[Phlebas]

Earls pre-date Dukes, and were the 'senior' nobles - ie the nobles who knights and barons swore service to

the council of Earls were advisers, and in some case judge / jury of the king

Dukes were later additions caused by the decimation of the senior noble families in the 100 year way. as power became more and more concentrated in fewer and fewer families, the leaders were given the title of dukes - as above

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl

if you want something nice and 'simple'. pre-conquest england had high kings, earls controlling large counties / ancient kingdoms with the power to elect successors, sheriffs controlling shires directly appointed by the king (think sheriff of nottingham rather than US style sheriffs), and below them both rich and poor warrior / land-owners (barons/ knights)

how many is dependant on the size of the lands you want to create - set a rough structure BUT remember that is wasn't set in stone - powers and exact titles do vary depending up on the nobles relationship with the king and other nobles so its not impossible to have a high king, with other kings paying tribute (the relationship between engalnd and scotland in the 1300's). dukes controlling some areas, sheriffs others, and earls having a title 'earl of Springfield' but no land or influence in that area.

in other words, make it up and it won't look any wierder than real life....

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Examples of what kind of info I seek: How many upper-echelon nobles are average/reasonable?

I assume 1% of the general population is nobility - from the lowest rungs to the top. I then divide by 7 to get a rough number of families. Those are numbers that, while based partly on things I've read, are mostly just pulled out of thin air. They give the semblance of making sense, however.

 

[Scribble]

I found he book: A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe to be a big help in understanding the medieval mindset...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I found he book: A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe to be a big help in understanding the medieval mindset...

It also tackles a lot of the practical issues, and with an eye toward the core books. An excellent book for worldbuilders.

 

[jimpaladin]

I use some palantine lines also in my Greyhawk world. It doesn't cause problems with Canonical figures and allows for more "areas" to have a feudal structure.

Just so you know, I understand Palantine rulers to be rulers that for some reason are sponsored by one legitimate ruler but is looked at like a puppet by other rulers in the same area, but aren't going to fight for the land controlled by the palatine ruler. Did that make sense?

Good Gaming!

 

[Nightfall]

When I read this thread title...I read it as "How many nobles does it take to screw a kingdom?"

 

[Cameron]

When I read this thread title...I read it as "How many nobles does it take to screw a kingdom?"

Same here. I was going to answer: "Not many, more than politicians, less than commoners."

Then I realised it was serious...

 

[Nightfall]

Cam,

Glad to see I wasn't the only one then.