How mediaeval is D&D, anyway?
- Thread starter Hairfoot
- Start date
I don't see D&D as medieval at all. It's a fantasy world, with e.g. monster selection drawing from nearly every culture and mythology on Earth, as well as numerous literary sources (and some created from scratch).
Technology is much more advanced than medieval Europe. Advanced technology (or, as it is more often called, magic) takes a very different form than in the real world, but it's there.
I think the reason so many people see the D&D world as medieval (implicitly, European) is the intersection of modern technology and D&D technology is roughly medieval technology. But since the advanced technology is significant in the D&D world too -- and should have some bearing on the culture -- this is misleading.
As far as social organization and culture are concerned, the rules as written leave a lot open. Campaigns show a lot of variation, but in practice most draw most heavily from contemporary culture. I often see campaigns where beaches are considered a place for rest and relaxation (quite unlikely in Europe until fairly recently), where the structure of the academy mirrors the late 20th-early 21st century North American university (even though the curriculum includes subjects such as Evocation and Necromancy not taught at Yale), and where women of all races have the same career options as men (unlike almost any historical model). There's nothing wrong with any of this, but there is something very wrong with describing any such setting as based on medieval Europe.
Technology is much more advanced than medieval Europe. Advanced technology (or, as it is more often called, magic) takes a very different form than in the real world, but it's there.
I think the reason so many people see the D&D world as medieval (implicitly, European) is the intersection of modern technology and D&D technology is roughly medieval technology. But since the advanced technology is significant in the D&D world too -- and should have some bearing on the culture -- this is misleading.
As far as social organization and culture are concerned, the rules as written leave a lot open. Campaigns show a lot of variation, but in practice most draw most heavily from contemporary culture. I often see campaigns where beaches are considered a place for rest and relaxation (quite unlikely in Europe until fairly recently), where the structure of the academy mirrors the late 20th-early 21st century North American university (even though the curriculum includes subjects such as Evocation and Necromancy not taught at Yale), and where women of all races have the same career options as men (unlike almost any historical model). There's nothing wrong with any of this, but there is something very wrong with describing any such setting as based on medieval Europe.
Rabelais said:
Where is that spelled out? I get from the PHB that ten of the eleven PC classes are automatically literate. So what? PCs are a cut above the average. Is there any passage I've missed, in the PHB or any other rulebook, that says all or even most commoners should be literate?
Phlebas
First Post
orsal said:
Not to be pedantic, (OK, being pedantic) but both oxford and cambridge universities were set up in the medieval period with a basic structure that hasn't changed too much since.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_university
Much as i agree with the rest of the post (about how most campaigns are very contemporary) I just think that medieval history is a very relevant source of ideas for most RP systems
Last edited:
Phlebas said:
If I may be even more pedantic, neither Oxford nor Cambridge is a North American university.
I don't know enough about British universities to say whether what I've seen adequately describes them, but here's one example. I've seen magic academies in D&D games where graduate student TAs are as integral to the teaching of undergraduates as in any large North American university. Do British universities use TAs, and if so, since when? I know it's a foreign concept to much of the world -- many of my grad student colleagues had no experience with the custom. In North America, my understanding is that it's a post-WWII development.
Mycanid
First Post
Hmm ... well, at least this thread is a little less vitriolic than the other thread that discussed the same topic.... :\
Ya know ... personally I like it to be late medieval/early renaissance tech wise. With magic thrown in too, like Mark CMG said.
However, I like to lean a more towards the "less developed" side of things technology wise as the defaults in place- for example, no gunpowder - and have it replaced by magic on a large scale level (i.e. a societal level) when necessary, as opposed to when the whim hits one or when it seems "logical".
I have a vague feeling that as the years have gone by in the various incarnations of the game that more and more of the "societal defaults" (correct word?) have been going over to magical means rather than those you might find in agrarian cultures. This is definitely NOT to my personal taste. I prefer an emphasis on the agrarian level of technology being the default standard people and countries and cultures use as opposed to magic.
Perhaps such an emphasis has come about slowly as gamers have applied the "convenience" level of things our technology is being developed in line with today to the magical fantastical realms in both fiction and rpg's over the years. Whatever the reason I tend to shy away from this emphasis of things.... :\
Ya know ... personally I like it to be late medieval/early renaissance tech wise. With magic thrown in too, like Mark CMG said.
However, I like to lean a more towards the "less developed" side of things technology wise as the defaults in place- for example, no gunpowder - and have it replaced by magic on a large scale level (i.e. a societal level) when necessary, as opposed to when the whim hits one or when it seems "logical".
I have a vague feeling that as the years have gone by in the various incarnations of the game that more and more of the "societal defaults" (correct word?) have been going over to magical means rather than those you might find in agrarian cultures. This is definitely NOT to my personal taste. I prefer an emphasis on the agrarian level of technology being the default standard people and countries and cultures use as opposed to magic.
Perhaps such an emphasis has come about slowly as gamers have applied the "convenience" level of things our technology is being developed in line with today to the magical fantastical realms in both fiction and rpg's over the years. Whatever the reason I tend to shy away from this emphasis of things.... :\
Phlebas
First Post
orsal said:
I think I'll concede on the pedantic notes
No idea what a TA is so you might be right about it being unique to NA (I wasn't at Oxford or Cambridge either so I can't answer for them). Its certainly not a term I remember from my university days, though that was, errm, some time ago (but post WWII)
Wasn't trying to make a serious point really, just highlighting that universities are old concepts even if they can end up looking like 80's B-movies in a lot of games.....A lot, as they say, depends on the group.....
Doug McCrae
Legend
How about loosely based?orsal said:
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
In Australia - at least in my experience in studies in religion at the University of Sydney, and my sister's experience in law at Monash University in Melbourne - graduate students teach tutorials and may give the occasional lecture if their area of expertise comes up in a course taught by one of the "full-time" lecturers or professors.orsal said:
When I took a course in New Religious Movements, for instance, my tutor for the course was at the time a PhD student, and gave a lecture on the Cao Dai religion of Vietnam, which was the subject of his doctoral thesis.
Phlebas said:
Teaching Assistant. A graduate student involved in the teaching of undergraduates, usually running a tutorial section (where a professor teaches a large lecture), a single section of a low-level course, or a lab course in the sciences.
As I understand it, it was in response to the post-WWII enrollment boom, when all the soldiers returned from Europe at once and many of them went to university, that the larger schools turned to their graduate students as a way to ease the burden on faculty. At the same time, it's a principal way to provide financial support to graduate students.
Phlebas said:
Oh, I wasn't suggesting that universities per se were a modern phenomenon -- not at all. But as with other social institutions, its forms and culture vary a lot with time and place. I don't expect very much in 20th century North America looks too much like its counterpart in 14th century Europe.
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