D&D 5E How might elven societies be different from the norm?

[seebs]

I had a theory of elves having elaborate bio-engineering going on so that elf bodies naturally accumulate rare trace minerals and assemble them, so when an elf dies at a couple thousand years old, bits and pieces of their body are usable as a starting point for weapons and armor.

 

[Celebrim]

Actually, the issue is in regard to the resources elves have.

If a society has metal, someone needs to spend their time in the pitch darkness covered with soot and swinging a pick in order to mine that metal...

No, not really. The famous Japanese katana's for example were forged from a black iron rich sand. You just dig shovels full of it up. There are likewise plenty of surface mining techniques whenever you have seems of ore near the surface. And even to the extent that you wish to have elven miners in traditional horizontal shaft mining, I'm not sure why this creates a particularly big intellectual problem. After all, a race with the favored class of wizard has effective technology levels far higher than medieval humans, particularly in D&D where things like endless burning magical torches are a thing.

someone needs to stand next to a roaring forge that can heat that metal to a boiling point and someone needs to pound that metal into shape.

Sure. And? I'm not really understanding the problem you have with this.

If every single last elf without exception is trained to use swords... guess what? CLEARLY they have tons of metal to put towards that end.

This implies that any elves are trained to use swords, and I'm not sure that is established. Humans are trained to use swords. We have no evidence that elves have to be trained to use swords. It could be that they are born with the basic intuition necessary to use swords and bows.

Those big flawlessly white ivory towers they live in must be made from stone. And not just any stone, they have been picky about their stone. This means there must be a quarry site, there must be workers with picks and other tools cutting the stone from the quarry site, there must be large numbers of workers dragging that stone from the quarry site all the way up that mountain or into the depths of that forest over rough terrain in order to build these things.

Again, assuming that they do live in big ivory towers - which I for one have not asserted, and in fact asserted that compared to humans most elves lived in poverty - then yes the stone needs to be quarried (although, I guess it isn't inconceivable that they could use something like Wall of Stone and Stone Shape to do the work). But what is your objection to elves engaging in labor?

I could keep asking the same questions about the rest of your objections.

And that goes for the clothing they wear too. For the elves to constantly have the finest in silk clothing despite living in conditions where it would get soiled constantly... you know how much work is involved in making silk in traditional ways? And to cloth their entire population with fresh clothing and cleaning it constantly is tons of hard work.

Again, I have no idea where you get the idea that elves are normally clothed in silk. For the record, my elves are normally clothed in material spun from their own hair, but I guess that's beside the point. Why would elves not enjoy spinning cloth?

Every single elf without exception is a wizard or bard or ranger or craftsman? Every. single. one?!!

In order for ANYONE to have that sort of position, to especially have their position dressed and surrounded in the kind of finery they get, it takes 7-9 other people doing the actual filthy, hard, rough, taxing, back-breaking labor in order to build where they live, feed them, cloth them, provide them with their tools, transport all this stuff and generally allow them to live without any distractions from their "enlightened" pursuits that ensure they do not have to do an honest days work in their entire immortal sleepless lives.

Wait? What? You've got a race of immortal, intelligent, magical, beings that don't need much sleep, have night vision and reputations for being extremely skilled craftsman capable of creating goods that endure without the mark of time, and you think that they need a bunch of slave labor to cover their basic necessities like food and clothing? I would presume most elves most of the time are laboring in various crafts. Shaker villages didn't need slave labor to create extraordinarily crafted beautiful goods of every sort, and those were populated by mere humans. Cistercian monks invented all sorts of labor saving devices and produced a great surplus of goods for not only their own use but for sell, and did so with no more than clean wind and water power - ushering into the first industrial revolution in the west. And now you are saying that magical elves can't do at least as well?

Someone must be doing this. And by your own very admission-- it is not a single member of their race.

I would presume "craftsman" are engaged in craft. What are you going on about?

2) MUCH MORE DAMNING, they have such extraordinarily powerful magics that they can, with a wave of the hand, eliminate all need for the common class all together... and sinisterly enough, keep this secret to themselves. They have spells that, if used, can provide all the food, shelter, clothing, etc. that a people could ever desire and if they simply shared those spells with the dwarfs, humans, halflings, dragonborn, orcs, hobgoblins, etc...

Wait, what? That's ridiculous. That's like suggesting that since we humans have innate and unintuitive understanding of language, that we are to be damned for not sharing it with horses. It's quite possible that a race would have skills built into their very nature - like say very long life - that simply couldn't be passed on no matter how hard you tried. And even if this wasn't the case, you've neglected the very obvious possibility that the elves did in fact share much of their knowledge of technology and magic with younger races like humans, goblins, and dwarves, only to see those races misuse the technology to create weapons, rape the environment, and engage in continual wars with each other (and the elves), rather than caring for and feeding their own people.

Either way, elves must fundamentally be evil beings if every single one of them can live like nobility when we know for a fact that for anyone to live like nobility, so many more must live like commoners and they are unwilling to provide any sensible explanation as to where their commoners are.

Where is this weird rage against elves coming from?

 

[Tony Vargas]

TL; DR: You hate elves. I get it.

It's not a rare sentiment. Remember Talislanta? It's sales tagline was "...and best of all, no elves!"

I got almost as sick of elves in the 80s as of ninjas...

Either way, elves must fundamentally be evil beings if every single one of them can live like nobility when we know for a fact that for anyone to live like nobility, so many more must live like commoners...

This could just be a symptom of fantasy. Like how in the SCA everyone's a noble.

Terry Pratchet had an interesting take on why elves were so admired by every other race except dwarves: they were mind-controllers, and only dwarves were immune.

In some stories, fey have these amazing palaces and possessions and whatnot, but when a mortal comes home a bushel of stolen fey jewelry and whatnot, it turns out to be all flowers or turns to dust or something. Fey Glamour. Elves could just be talented, even instinctive or unconscious/involuntary, illusionists, that way...

 

[Celebrim]

It's not a rare sentiment. Remember Talislanta? It's sales tagline was "...and best of all, no elves!"

I got almost as sick of elves in the 80s as of ninjas...

Yeah, I get that.

But it's one thing to think elves have become a trite overdone thing, and another to start writing about how elves are a counter-revolutionary idea and developing racial conspiracy theories.

For my part, I never quite imagined that one portion of my essay about elves in my homebrew world would end up being applicable to people in the real one:

For their own part, the other races are likely to do the same, holding elves on the one hand in awe, and on the other hand disdain and hatred. Elves are envied for their natural abilities, beauty, and long lives. In stories told by non-elves, elves are portrayed as if they were a superior race and gifted in every area without flaw and traits and gifts are often attributed to them that have no basis in fact. The greatest gifts of the most talented members of their race are treated as the common skills of every elf. So many such tall tales, legends and myths have grown up around elves amongst the other races that often the real thing proves to be something of a let down once close acquaintance demystifies them. In areas where elves are almost unknown, they are often believed to be quite tall, each an arch-mage and as knowledgeable as seers, able to sing like the celestial hosts, and gifted surpassing a master in every craft. The idea that elves are of a generally unimposing stature, often merely passable singers, are probably not more graceful than the most graceful person you know, have basically average looks, and may not be able to perform more than a cantrip simply never occurs in such stories.​

 

[GreenTengu]

TL; DR: You hate elves. I get it.

Funny how you can only see one way for elves to live beautifully—through exploitation of other races. I don't think that really says as much about elves as, well, other things. I mean, this is a universe where magic exists and people come back from the dead, and THIS is the thing you find "unrealistic".

Okay, let me break this down to your intellectual level.

To get stuff need work.
Dwarf work. Human work. Halfling work.
Orc don't work. Orc don't have stuff.
Elf have all best stuff.
But Elf no work.
Someone do Elf work for Elf.
Elf home secret?
Elf no want you know who do work for Elf.
Or Elf know how get stuff but no work and no tell anyone but Elf and Elf laugh at everyone who work.

That is probably still too complicated for you to grasp, but I don't know that I can really stoop any more to the anti-intellectual of "tl;dr"ers/

 

[Morinth]

Okay, let me break this down to your intellectual level.

To get stuff need work.
Dwarf work. Human work. Halfling work.
Orc don't work. Orc don't have stuff.
Elf have all best stuff.
But Elf no work.
Someone do Elf work for Elf.
Elf home secret?
Elf no want you know who do work for Elf.
Or Elf know how get stuff but no work and no tell anyone but Elf and Elf laugh at everyone who work.

That is probably still too complicated for you to grasp, but I don't know that I can really stoop any more to the anti-intellectual of "tl;dr"ers/

Why you rascal! ::shakes fist in a desultory manner::

 

[Celebrim]

Okay, let me break this down to your intellectual level.

To get stuff need work.
Dwarf work. Human work. Halfling work.
Orc don't work. Orc don't have stuff.
Elf have all best stuff.
But Elf no work.

Where is your evidence for this idea that elves don't work in either canon D&D text, Tolkien text, or highly influential text from which we get the Elven archetype?

There is plenty of evidence of elves performing work and engaging in craftsmanship. Aside from the ludicrousness of the theory, we know that in D&D in particular there is a vast amount of goods which only elves can manufacture, and if in fact these goods were being made by some secret slave race that could only make elvish goods what exactly would they be? I think your theory fails to either provide evidence for itself, or to conform to Occum's Razor.

That is probably still too complicated for you to grasp, but I don't know that I can really stoop any more to the anti-intellectual of "tl;dr"ers/

This sort of insult only really works if you can convince everyone else observing the debate that the person you are speaking to is an idiot, and you are not. You have to be voicing what everyone else is already thinking. And you know what, you aren't really getting a whole lot of approval in this thread. Your theory seems to have fundamental problems. And when you start calling other people an idiot when you are unable to explain yourself, it really doesn't help persuade anyone. You have to use "you are an idiot" as a thesis statement, and then provide the convincing and compelling evidence. You can't use "you are an idiot" as the evidence.

Besides which, either will eventually get you in trouble with the mods here, whether you can present compelling evidence or not.

 

[Morinth]

To get stuff need work.
Dwarf work. Human work. Halfling work. Elf work.
Orc don't work. Orc don't have stuff.
Elf have all best stuff.
But Hobgoblin no see Elf work.
Hobgoblin assume someone do Elf work for Elf.
Elf home secret?
Hobgoblin assume Elf no want you know who do work for Elf.
Or Elf know how get stuff but no work and no tell anyone but Elf and Elf laugh at everyone who work.
Hobgoblin never consider possibility that Elf stuff accrue over span of many Orc generations, product of years of long-lived Elf toil and conservation, shared by comparably few Elf individuals in society where all members contribute to material comfort of society as whole.
Hobgoblin make basic assumptions about nature of Elf society, Hobgoblin no question basic premise of argument or conclusions reached via limited observation of insular society. Hobgoblin assume worst. Hobgoblin also attempt to denigrate random woman on internet, but random woman on internet just lols.

FTFY

 

[Queer Venger]

IIRC, from the Complete Book of Elves in 2E, they don't eat much meat, so they probably don't keep livestock. They probably live more of a gatherer lifestyle, with cultivated groves of fruits and such.

A tree city (ala Fellowship of the Ring) seems the best way to view things, possibly with a building or two on the ground meant for visitors (especially an inn and tavern). Elves are probably more self-sufficient and reliable that humans, so beggars and trash are probably rare. Thieves would probably still be common, but they would more target individuals, rather than a bank.

Reverie would still be more comfortable in a quiet place with a comfortable couch or bed to lay on. I would imagine they have "bedrooms" which are fairly sparse by human standards.

Although if you reference Tolkien as inspiration you also have Rivendell, which is not built on trees but surrounding waterfalls, you also get the Kingdoms of Nargothrond, (Silmarillion) and the Halls of the Elven king, (Hobbit) both which were underground.

 

[Shasarak]

I think I might like the idea of high elves (in particular) being the "Greeks" of D&D. The original civilized civilization. The rest of the peoples of the realms copied, adapted, and made what they took their own versions of their original, pure, society.

The Greek civilisation was based on slaves, right? I could see that working for Elves.