D&D General How much control do DMs need?

[Imaro]

Gee, I wonder if anyone posted this upthread:

After disagreeing with me for post after post you now state your agreement as if you were right all along.

EDIT: Yeah, this too:

Yeah there's definitely some confusion going on and I think it's because you use pre-prep as synonymous with D&D prep... I don't. When you say a game doesn't rely on pre-prep... my assumption (and I think a few other posters in this thread as well) isn't... well it doesn't have the exact type and same categories of prep as D&D... That's pretty much self-evident since it's not D&D. We are assuming you are saying there's no to very little pre-prep for this game.

 

[Umbran]

No, that doesn't match my experience at all. In the vast majority of fantasy, space opera, pulp, horror etc etc campaigns, IME PC history, family, birthplace is irrelevant in play, and often a player demanding to bring it up would be seen as violating the table contract.

And there are degrees of relevance.

I'm playing in a Space 1889 game - one of the characters is the daughter of a medium-power British Noble. That part of her background is relevant to play. Whether the Badgely-Wakefiled family demesnes is in Kent or West Sussex isn't, when she's mucking about in the jungles of Venus looking for a lost city before the BBEG finds out how to use Venusian plant spores to enact mass mind control.

And, in this game (which is not D&D), the relevance of the background is already mechanically supported, and doesn't need further GM input.

 

[Maxperson]

One way would be if one conjectured that the tool in question was not suitable or got in the way of successful play. However, this would come down to one's ability to define "successful play" for all cohorts. The impossibility of such a definition presents an insurmountable obstacle to the conclusions the poster is making.

Right. The fact that I have created very successful games(art) using the D&D tool(photoshop) invalidates any claims that it can't be such an aid to art. The best she can claim is that she creates a different kind of art and it doesn't suit her personal needs, not that it is bad at art or isn't a tool.

 

[Imaro]

Do you think that prep in Agon serves a different purpose than prep in D&D?

What about other games? Do you think all prep serves the same purpose?

It facilitates running the game... Of course there are different games with different goals and different experiences... this isn't being disputed by myself or anyone else. This conversation is arising because of a confusing usage of prep and stating that some games don't have it before the game starts.

 

[clearstream]

The point is: using Photoshop requires less effort than building an image editing software from the ground up.

I believe that this is true of D&D for many. I took the time to read what folk write on Amazon. Their reasons for enjoying the game. (A few threads back I gave the stats which, so far as Amazon goes, show 5e to have the strongest positive rankings of any TTRPG; CoC coming in second.) Anyway, what you say doesn't chime with what tens of thousands of players say.

Preparing a D&D campaign requires more effort than just... designing a game. The designers refuse to do their job and rule over the game with an iron fist, refuse to do all the thinking, and leave the most important work to the GM. You can't play D&D to explore the designers' vision and let someone else do all the thinking for you.

I'm probably misunderstanding what you mean here. Is your contention that folk should play to explore the designers' vision and let someone else do all the thinking for them? Why would that be true of everyone?

Only your own. At which point, isn't it just better to design your own system, that is grown in a lab to bring forth your vision? The amount of effort is, at worst, comparable. The results will be better. What's the point?

So I would draw a distinction between the creative work of RPG system design and the creative work of RPG session content.

 

[clearstream]

"Isomorphic cohort to cohort"? That's the language you want to use for an internet forum audience?

Yes.

Anything else I can help you with?

 

[hawkeyefan]

It facilitates running the game... Of course there are different games with different goals and different experiences... this isn't being disputed by myself or anyone else. This conversation is arising because of a confusing usage of prep and stating that some games don't have it before the game starts.

Sure, that's why I'm asking. I think that's at the root of the confusion. The depth and extent of prep and what purpose it serves.

Looking at what Agon does and the way it does it, what would you say is the purpose of that prep? Beyond the basic "facilitates running the game"... more specifically, what does it do, how, and why? How is it different than D&D and why?

 

[Imaro]

The point is: using Photoshop requires less effort than building an image editing software from the ground up.

True...

Preparing a D&D campaign requires more effort than just... designing a game.

Technically true... At a basic level heads or tails could be considered a game. Not sure, without elaboration, this statement really tells us much about D&D though.

The designers refuse to do their job and rule over the game with an iron fist, refuse to do all the thinking, and leave the most important work to the GM. You can't play D&D to explore the designers' vision and let someone else do all the thinking for you.

Well the designers "vision" seems to be giving you various tools to facilitate your best version of a D&D game. I agree... the most important work is left to the DM (isn't this usually true of all tools??)... but that's exactly why some of us don't want someone else doing all the thinking for us... though nothing against those that enjoy that gaming experience.

Only your own. At which point, isn't it just better to design your own system, that is grown in a lab to bring forth your vision? The amount of effort is, at worst, comparable. The results will be better. What's the point?

The problem is you're assuming (incorrectly IMO) that D&D doesn't...
1. Provide 95%+ of the tools a person needs to realize their vison
2. Requires less effort than designing and getting buy in from players for an entirely made up system.
3. Designing an entirely new system is fun for most players.

I think for most players of D&D the designers did exactly what we wanted them to do (or got close enough to provide a really sound base/foundation...

 

[S'mon]

In my eyes that's either a) in reference to a separately-sold setting, much like some classic adventures reference Greyhawk locations on the assumption you either already own it or will at some point, or b) a straight-up failure on the publisher's part.

If they're going to mention that stuff as part of the pre-gen character write-up then they need to give you some information about it (including at the very least where it is on the map) either in the module or elsewhere, so that if-when the character wants to go there you-as-DM have something to go on.

I do, unless they've published their setting elsewhere and are merely referring to elements of it here.

This one's not on you. You're relying on a published adventure and it has let you down.

Misty Vale campaign is a location-bounded sandbox. A player who wants to leave is saying they don't want to engage with the campaign. You can have sand boxes that are effectively unbounded, but this is not one. I can't see how this is a bad thing or failure.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Preparing a D&D campaign requires more effort than just... designing a game.

Many have created their own homebrew campaigns, I doubt even 1% of the playerbase have designed their own games.