D&D General How much control do DMs need?

how can we judge which game text is the more flexible
By looking at what can actually be done with the rules within the context of RPGing.

Examples have been given upthread (mostly but not exclusively by @loverdrive):

*Can the system toggle "zoom" on resolution of conflicts/situations?
*Can the system toggle severity of consequences to reflect pacing or stakes concerns?
*Can the system handle PCs separated from and/or out of communication with one another?
*Can the system easily handle changes of genre?

I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Conversely, you can't make a thing more flexible or customisable just by sticking a label on it saying "Knock yourselves out!" Thus I 100% agree with @AbdulAlhazred (and posted the point before he did) that the presence or absence of "rule zero" has no bearing on any of this.
 

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[EDITED] Acknowledge that you dashed this off and are leaning on a motherlode of hand-wavium, to take a critical point of view I have no idea what that move could produce in play. What counts as a magical solution? Are marvelous solutions different from other magic solutions? Do I need to find the conundrum or can I just say that I have one? What can I do with a spell once I've designed one (assuming produce = design)? What are the limits if any on the spell effect?
I don't see any handwavium here. This is how DW moves work. All moves must follow from the fiction. Admittedly, I may have gotten carried away with flowery language (because I never ever do that around here, yeah? Hah!) but the trigger phrase seems solid enough to me.

A magical solution is a spell. I had figured that was obvious, given the lines "The spell does not take a long time to cast" and "It's always possible to improve a spell you've designed through Hit the Spellbooks" (bolding added) and the fact that it's called "Hit the Spellbooks." Does it really have to be so pedantic? I like colorful, evocative text.

I just wanted to play up the fantasy of it. Is this really such a big deal? If it troubles you so, just replace the whole trigger phrase with the lifelessly barebones "when you spend time designing a spell." I genuinely don't understand why the wording I used is such a horror.

This is Dungeon World. You must, in the fiction, already have a conundrum you need to solve in order to try to solve one. That's just how the system works. If you've played Monster of the Week, I cannot believe it does not have a similar "start and end with the fiction" requirement.

You can cast it like any other spell...so you'd use the Cast a Spell move if it is one of the spells you currently have access to, and if it isn't, you could prepare it by whatever move you use to do that. Given how I wrote this, it is for Wizard(-like) characters whose magic comes from study. I would do something else for someone whose spells were rooted in the Cleric playbook (or any other spellcaster concept that wasn't built around academia.)

The limits are (a) what you don't choose from the list, and (b) what seems reasonable, as judged by the GM and the group. Same as the official Ritual move which the DW Wizard possesses:

Ritual​

When you draw on a place of power to create a magical effect, tell the GM what you’re trying to achieve. Ritual effects are always possible, but the GM will give you one to four of the following conditions:

It’s going to take days/weeks/months.
First you must ________.
You’ll need help from ________.
It will require a lot of money
The best you can do is a lesser version, unreliable and limited
You and your allies will risk danger from ______.
You’ll have to disenchant ________ to do it.

If that's okay, what is wrong with the move I proposed?

We've been playing quite a bit of MotW. I enjoy playing the Spooky.
Then I'm not really sure why things need to be so legalistic.

Use Magic is situated within a complete text. Your move can't exist outside much other game text.
....yes. Because that's literally what I was doing with it. As I explicitly said I was going to do in the post where I wrote it. I explicitly said Dungeon World lacks for a certain move that feels like it would make sense to exist as a move (spell research), so I would demonstrate that Dungeon World is flexible by doing it and timing myself.

In 5e I can design a balanced new spell following advice in the DMG. That might take more than 14 seconds.
There may be a mixup here. I said 14 minutes. But yes, I would 100% expect it to take more time. That was the whole point of timing it! And this move, purely by existing, now makes any new spell something that can be at least initiated, in the rules, with full and appropriate move-based consequences and drawbacks. N matter what you do, nor how well you roll, you cannot avoid choosing at least one of the drawbacks: casting time, expense, imprecision, or side effects. Only by then making an adventure out of improving it could you possibly make all the flaws go away, because you would need secret knowledge, special tools, or the aid of someone else who is unlikely to offer that aid without cost.

It helps make the world fantastic, fills a character's life with adventure, and in being rolled and open-ended, requires that both sides play to find out what happens. It follows the Agendas, and thus, if used according to the Principles, is a perfectly valid move. It might need a little bit of playtesting (perhaps one or more restrictions are auto-picks or too easily skipped), but that would be slight refinement over time, not "this is flatly unworkable."

I genuinely don't understand why you're bringing up all the "this requires other text." Of course it does! I never said or even implied otherwise. If you were going to invent rules for how a Wizard could research brand-new spells on their own in D&D—any edition thereof—those rules would take forever to make even for the first draft and be frightfully complex by comparison. That was my core point here.

I've designed class features on the spot, in play. Is adding a spell or a move the sort of flexibility at issue here? How much does time to execute the design matter (would it matter if it were 56 seconds instead of 14, really?) I think Use Magic took considerably more than 14 seconds to design. That's disregarding the contextual design that makes it work, and connected moves like Hex.

[I've deleted earlier text here on design process, which I think in the end wasn't relevant.]
See above. And, as noted, 14 (nearly 15) minutes, not seconds. I'm not THAT fast.

I guarantee you that designing a "build your own spells" rule for literally any edition of D&D (even the one I like best!) would take ages and ages to write, be dramatically more complex, and outright require extensive playtesting before it could be put into use, long before any of the minor-tweaking refinement I mentioned above.
 

*Can the system toggle "zoom" on resolution of conflicts/situations?
*Can the system toggle severity of consequences to reflect pacing or stakes concerns?
*Can the system handle PCs separated from and/or out of communication with one another?
*Can the system easily handle changes of genre?

I'm sure there are plenty of others.
When we make lists like that, we land on FKR trumping every other system for flexibility. We also risk mistaking a list of affordances for the value of those affordances to our purposes.

*Can the system handle skirmish-scale combat where positioning, range and action economy matters?

I feel like that is one of the important trade-offs that D&D offers designers. If I want to include that in a design, PbtA won't do. Not unless I am willing to do a great deal of engineering. I can compare D&D with say BRP to see better suits my ends. Do I want levelling in bounds that grant new features, or incremental probability bumps with use? Does the kind of play I'm envisioning even care about the possibility of separated PCs? If not, the weight of that feature into my assessment is zero.

Generally, an effective way of comparing lists of affordances for products is to use an analytical hierachy. There's a paper or two on the gain in effectiveness of solution to problem. The most important questions to ask in product design are

1. What valuable problems or jobs to do, do players have that I want to solve?
2. What differentiates my game from others on features players value?

Listing affordances is basically nonsense. Unreal is a fantastic toolset with more affordances than almost all others (maybe all, it's an incredible suite). Depending on my purposes, Blender might be a much better choice. Form follows function. Figure out what you want to do: only then are you in position to judge which tools are best (i.e. set the weights in the analytical hierachy.)

If the argument is - the more "flexible" game system is the one for which we can list the most affordances - then "flexible" does not mean or even imply good.
 
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I guarantee you that designing a "build your own spells" rule for literally any edition of D&D (even the one I like best!) would take ages and ages to write, be dramatically more complex, and outright require extensive playtesting before it could be put into use, long before any of the minor-tweaking refinement I mentioned above.
I can do it leaning on the same hand-wavium.

Intelligence (Arcana)
Design a spell using the common template. DM will tell you if your character can learn it, and if so set a DC for doing so.


I took about 30 seconds on that.
 
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To me, the existence of the "Advanced F***ery" seems to show that you are wrong.

I mean, page 278 has the following:

NOT EVEN APOCALYPSE WORLD​
So, yeah, based on Apocalypse World, but Apocalypse World no longer? F*** yeah.​

And then there are three pages of examples from various games: a parkour one by John Harper, a zombie one, a sci-fi one, and an early version of Dungeon World.
You're misunderstanding my point.

If the claim that D&D is distinctively flexible is nothing more than a semantic play about what counts as playing the same game, then as best I can tell it's of no interest to anyone.
I'm not making that claim. I'm not sure anyone is.
 

Hit the Spellbooks
When you dedicate yourself to the study of a magical conundrum in order to produce a marvelous magical solution, roll+INT. If you have access to an excellent library or top-notch arcane laboratory, take an additional +1.
✴ On a 10+, choose three.
✴ On a 7-9, choose two.
✴ 6-, choose one, and ask the GM what complication you've gotten yourself embroiled in as a result of pushing the boundaries of knowledge a bit too far.
  • The spell does not take a long time to cast.
  • There are no expensive material components.
  • The effect is precise and easily controlled.
  • There are no unwanted secondary effects.
It's always possible to improve a spell you've designed through Hit the Spellbooks, but you'll need a special advantage you didn't have before. This could be hidden grimoires of the great masters, traveling to distant cities with state-of-the-art facilities, or (if you can stomach it) collaborating with someone else who knows the field like you do (because surely no one knows it better, right?)
I took this to be at least loosely inspired by the Savvyhead Workspace move in AW:

WORKSPACE​
Choose which of the following your workspace includes. Choose 3: a garage, a darkroom, a controlled growing environment, skilled labor (Carna, Thuy, Pamming, eg), a junkyard of raw materials, a truck or van, weird-ass electronica, machining tools, transmitters & receivers, a proving range, a relic of the golden age past, booby traps.​
When you go into your workspace and dedicate yourself to making a thing, or to getting to the bottom of some sh*t, decide what and tell the MC. The MC will tell you “sure, no problem, but…” and then 1 to 4 of the following:​
• it’s going to take hours/days/weeks/months of work;​
• first you’ll have to get/build/fix/figure out ___;​
• you’re going to need ___ to help you with it;​
• it’s going to cost you a [lot] of jingle;​
• the best you’ll be able to do is a crap version, weak and unreliable;​
• it’s going to mean exposing yourself (plus colleagues) to serious danger;​
• you’re going to have to add ___ to your workplace first;​
• it’s going to take several/dozens/hundreds of tries;​
• you’re going to have to take ___ apart to do it.​
The MC might connect them all with “and,” or might throw in a merciful “or.”​
Once you’ve accomplished the necessaries, you can go ahead and accomplish the thing itself. The MC will stat it up, or spill, or whatever it calls for.​

Whether or not my impression in this respect was accurate, I found the move itself clear enough.

EDIT: Having read your post 742, I see you were inspired by Ritual, which is itself an adaptation of the Savvyhead move.
 

Maybe, maybe not. I mean, that 4e campaign I was referring to was set in my very long-established game world, so if you wanted to incorporate a whole kingdom, it would probably be pretty far away, or there would have to be some sort of more complicated story about how it was maybe very small and obscure, or no longer exists, etc. I haven't had a case where someone just showed up and said they'd invented a kingdom that was just down the road. It would be interesting to see how that would work out, but noting that these days I don't particularly consider much to be canonical. I can always draw a different map or just not explain it at all.

So if the kingdom was inconsequential enough then it's okay to add. Which ... would not be a major change to the lore of the world. Which has been my stance all along.

Why not? I would find that exceedingly amusing! I'm sure it would be fairly trivial to spin that into some sort of highly complicated and embarrassing political snafu or something. Or just let them have their 'extra spending cash', it will be burned through soon enough, whatever. Maybe later one of the NPCs will note how the character sponges off his family! That will be amusing. I just don't see the need for all this excessive concern over controlling PC's access to every gold piece or whatever. Rich or poor the character will continue in the story one way or another!

Are we talking lifestyle or "Hey everybody we were running a bit low on healing potions so I need you to help my manservant to unload the wagon"? Again, it's a question of scale. I can be a cheap-ass DM most of the time, combined with having a curated list of magic items for sale. So not having enough money to buy anything the PCs want has a significant impact.

It comes down to backstory fiction giving one PC a leg up. After all, is the thieves guild an issue? Just have the parental units task the guard with shutting it down doesn't sound like an interesting scenario. Unless everybody is rich but has limitations, I just don't see it not causing conflict in the campaigns I run. I've just seen people abuse their backgrounds to the point were the group talked about it when they were late. We all explained to the DM that it was a major issue and we had what amounted to an intervention to tell the player it was just too much and they had to change things. So I try to avoid that.

If I could come up with some way that each PC had significant support from their background, it might be fun. But just one having extra benefits that actually impacts game play? Pass.
 

I think that Toon is narrow in premise you are a Loony Tune basically, and that's inherently both a fairly niche thing, and fairly divergent from most other genre of RPGs (I don't know of another RPG in that niche, I guess maybe there is one, but in almost 50 years of RPG design its very rare). A few other games have done things like 'break the fourth wall' but this is all pretty specialized stuff. So, yes. OTOH a game like Dungeon World is as wide in premise as D&D, and its rules systems resolve the common sorts of RPG situations, albeit the process of play is different. I mean, process of play MIGHT be restrictive to a degree in some niche situations, but that's equally true of ALL processes of play, not just DW's PbtA based one.

So ... we agree? Toons is on one end of the spectrum, that's why I chose it as an example. Many games are somewhere else on the spectrum and I am making no judgement where other games fall.

That's what keeps confusing me. I agree that there are other games as flexible or more flexible than D&D. Some are also less flexible. I happen to like where D&D falls. So what's the issue?
 

So if the kingdom was inconsequential enough then it's okay to add. Which ... would not be a major change to the lore of the world. Which has been my stance all along.



Are we talking lifestyle or "Hey everybody we were running a bit low on healing potions so I need you to help my manservant to unload the wagon"? Again, it's a question of scale. I can be a cheap-ass DM most of the time, combined with having a curated list of magic items for sale. So not having enough money to buy anything the PCs want has a significant impact.

It comes down to backstory fiction giving one PC a leg up. After all, is the thieves guild an issue? Just have the parental units task the guard with shutting it down doesn't sound like an interesting scenario. Unless everybody is rich but has limitations, I just don't see it not causing conflict in the campaigns I run. I've just seen people abuse their backgrounds to the point were the group talked about it when they were late. We all explained to the DM that it was a major issue and we had what amounted to an intervention to tell the player it was just too much and they had to change things. So I try to avoid that.

If I could come up with some way that each PC had significant support from their background, it might be fun. But just one having extra benefits that actually impacts game play? Pass.

So do Backgrounds matter at all in your game? Or do they just consist of a pair of skills and a tool proficiency?
 

So do Backgrounds matter at all in your game? Or do they just consist of a pair of skills and a tool proficiency?

I don't use 5E, and only one game I presently play uses something like Backgrounds, but in most of the games I run, when players have backgrounds details that are relevant I will give them a bonus that feels appropriate or just let them automatically have information others wouldn't have. Even allow them to make as skill roll they normally don't have access too (they can always roll unskilled but that is harder). But I prefer to treat background stuff as highly fluid and not as specific tools the characters walk around with (i.e. if the player or I think the character would gain some benefit due to their personal backstory, occupation or upbringing, in a particular situation, usually that results in it having some kind of bonus or influence).
 

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