D&D General How much control do DMs need?

I think there are two very different approaches to flexibility though. There is a strictly mechanical approach where you make a thorough system (not necessarily a complex one but one capable of handling a wide variety of situations) and that can deinfitely work. But there is also simply a rulings over rules approach, which to me is what always made RPGs special and what made it feel like anything was possible to attempt. I don't think one approach is better than the other, and I do think in a rulings over rules situation, rules still matter (I definitely find that easier to do if the system is simple with plenty of general tools to draw on). But they can both work in my view. I think if the question is, is the system itself flexible well that is different. If you want a system that is designed to be flexible all around then D&D is probably not the best choice.
Can "rulings" be considered flexibility though? That's what a number of folks are pushing back on.

If a system relies heavily on rulings to achieve this, it would seem to suffer a serious dilemma: either they aren't design, meaning they're not actually part of the system and don't seem to be part of the system being flexible, or they are design, at which point the system is asking you to be armchair designer to play it and that bespeaks of inflexibility.

But if you want a game where in theory the players are supposed to say whatever it is they are trying to do and a GM is supposed to try to accommodate that mechanically to fit the situation, many versions of D&D would work (I don't think 3E would, that is a system where there is a rule covering just about anything---at least for D&D).
A design goal of pretty much every edition of D&D—except 4e and 5e, albeit for dramatically different reasons—has been to have some kind of rule for most situations. In early editions, this is what led to the profusion of idiosyncratic, bespoke subsystems that often did similar things in supremely different ways, and was infamously byzantine as a result. (Gygax's poor organization didn't help matters.) 2e continued this, being probably the smallest jump in mechanics between editions. 3e did too, but cleaned house, and this made it obvious what its design ethos required. It wasn't any more or less about having rules for a zillion situational details, it just tried to be consistent and systematic about it.

4e diverged by aiming for a bottom-up rather than top-down rule hierarchy ("exception-based design") and including what I call "extensible framework rules" (which cover classes or categories of situations, rather than solely aiming to produce a critical mass of discrete rules.) 5e diverged by openly disclaiming design in several places.
 

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Can "rulings" be considered flexibility though? That's what a number of folks are pushing back on.

If a system relies heavily on rulings to achieve this, it would seem to suffer a serious dilemma: either they aren't design, meaning they're not actually part of the system and don't seem to be part of the system being flexible, or they are design, at which point the system is asking you to be armchair designer to play it and that bespeaks of inflexibility.

Does 5E rely "heavily" on rulings? Most combats, in my experience are run mostly by the book. Skill checks are always going to be a judgement call based on guidelines provided, other checks are contests that are clearly defined. Of course the DM needs to make rulings now and then but to me that's a strength not a weakness. But it's not like we're making the game up as we go.

A design goal of pretty much every edition of D&D—except 4e and 5e, albeit for dramatically different reasons—has been to have some kind of rule for most situations. In early editions, this is what led to the profusion of idiosyncratic, bespoke subsystems that often did similar things in supremely different ways, and was infamously byzantine as a result. (Gygax's poor organization didn't help matters.) 2e continued this, being probably the smallest jump in mechanics between editions. 3e did too, but cleaned house, and this made it obvious what its design ethos required. It wasn't any more or less about having rules for a zillion situational details, it just tried to be consistent and systematic about it.

4e diverged by aiming for a bottom-up rather than top-down rule hierarchy ("exception-based design") and including what I call "extensible framework rules" (which cover classes or categories of situations, rather than solely aiming to produce a critical mass of discrete rules.) 5e diverged by openly disclaiming design in several places.


Leaving decisions up to the DM and group is not a bad thing in my book. You can gamify things more which can make things feel like a glorified board game to me which doesn't work. You can try to tie everything down which often just complicates and shifts how a target is set and leads to way too much page flipping to look up the "official" rule and creates a higher barrier of entry than necessary.

You're never going to hit a balance that works for everyone.
 

I would also say that sometimes constraints are what make a game more enjoyable for me. How can I solve this issue while staying within the rules is a challenge. On the other end of flexibility, there's the paradox of too many choices. People given too many options tend to be less satisfied with the experience.
One definition of a set of game rules (originally offered by Suits) is (paraphrasing) a set of constraints. Things we choose not to do (that we very well could do) in order to play the game. What rules define is what will normally count as playing the game.
 

One definition of a set of game rules (originally offered by Suits) is (paraphrasing) a set of constraints. Things we choose not to do (that we very well could do) in order to play the game. What rules define is what will normally count as playing the game.

Sorry, I don't speak forge waffle and have no particular desire to get that technical. ;)

I'm using constraints in the standard meaning of the word, a limitation. Limitations on what can be done and how those limitations are enforced (or ignored) in a game can be beneficial for multiple reasons. that's all.
 

I don't use 5E, and only one game I presently play uses something like Backgrounds, but in most of the games I run, when players have backgrounds details that are relevant I will give them a bonus that feels appropriate or just let them automatically have information others wouldn't have. Even allow them to make as skill roll they normally don't have access too (they can always roll unskilled but that is harder). But I prefer to treat background stuff as highly fluid and not as specific tools the characters walk around with (i.e. if the player or I think the character would gain some benefit due to their personal backstory, occupation or upbringing, in a particular situation, usually that results in it having some kind of bonus or influence).

There are lots of ways to handle it, depending on the game. Granting a benefit of some kind when the background would apply is a pretty common method. If it’s not defined specifically, it can lead to inconsistence, though.

They can matter. I have no problem with minor benefits, such as someone with the soldier background getting special treatment by the guard or occasionally getting a free beer and advantage on some social checks in some cases. I want players to use their backgrounds to fill out their character and act as a tool to aid in overcoming obstacles. Some of it's just downtime and RP like the PC in my current group that had the crafter background and now owns their own smithy.

As with all things the players bring in though, it's a matter of scale. Their current deeds and actions, especially after the first couple of levels, should have more impact most of the time than their background.

What about the specific abilities granted by the 5e backgrounds? Criminal, Folk Hero, and Noble all define how they can be used. Do you allow those abilities to be used?

In past discussions on this topic, many folks have said they don’t allow them to work as described, or don’t allow it all the time. Usually the reason for this is either it makes things too gamey or it makes social interactions too easy to resolve.

Honestly, I prefer there were more of these types of abilities. Either within the umbrella of background (perhaps progressing by level) or with the classes, offering all classes some measure of ability in pillars other than combat.
 

forge waffle

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Can "rulings" be considered flexibility though? That's what a number of folks are pushing back on.

If a system relies heavily on rulings to achieve this, it would seem to suffer a serious dilemma: either they aren't design, meaning they're not actually part of the system and don't seem to be part of the system being flexible, or they are design, at which point the system is asking you to be armchair designer to play it and that bespeaks of inflexibility.
To take your question to an extreme, is an RPG with no rules the most flexible?

Regarding armchair designers, isn't flexibility contemplated solely in view of modifications to the design? That is to say, no test of flexibility can be made where there is no flexing being done? Whether a system asks or does not ask users to be designers has no bearing on flexibility.

Sorry, I don't speak forge waffle and have no particular desire to get that technical. ;)

I'm using constraints in the standard meaning of the word, a limitation. Limitations on what can be done and how those limitations are enforced (or ignored) in a game can be beneficial for multiple reasons. that's all.
Suits predates the Forge by decades! I'm just saying that "beneficial for multiple reasons" includes the fundamental reason that limits enable game play. This matters to the tension being debated.

On the one hand, meta-rules like rule-zero or rulings-not-rules can in theory supply whatever limits interest us. They're the most flexible possible rules.
And on the other hand, they provide no limits. (Any limits are supplied by the user.) That makes it doubtful as to whether they should count as tools in the box.

But it's not at all clear what definitively counts them out. If I take a normative approach to a game text then I follow it's rules. If rule-zero is not among them, I should normally not follow rule-zero. I can't really say that a toolbox not containing rule-zero is fine: I just pop rule-zero in. Once I'm doing that, why can't I pop whatever I like into any toolbox?
 

I'm concerned that the debate about flexibility doesn't really get at anything important, and that there may be in some poster's minds a conflation of flexible with good. So that noted, thinking about what I mean by flexibility.
I mean, I really tried to get on top of exactly that thing above, spending rather a long paragraph talking about how the rules one uses to play and the style one pursues are genuinely separate and need to be understood as such.

To give a (probably horrible) analogy, let's compare two carpenter's toolboxes.

Box A contains a jigsaw, a hammer, a crescent wrench, a grout removal tool, a plane and a 1" chisel. Six tools.
Box B contains a single phillips screwdriver. One tool.

On this occasion, I need to attach one piece of wood to another using philips-head woodscrews. Box B is right for my purpose. Box A contains nothing that will do this job as effectively.
If we are speaking about individual, highly specific situations, yes, exactly this result comes out. But is that relevant for TTRPGs?

One of the big draws of the medium is that it can do an enormous variety of things. Even games I have referred to upthread as relatively narrow—such as Monsterhearts and Masks—are open to a staggering variety of stories. If they weren't, the (sub)genres on which they're based (bildungsroman by way of "supernatural romance" and "superhero comics" respectively) wouldn't be absolutely stuffed with the things. That freedom means one needs to be prepared for a variety of situations. "I genuinely need to do only one, singular and specific thing, which requires a specific tool," is exactly the opposite of considering a variety of situations.

Or, to appropriate your analogy: both of these toolboxes are bad. The first one is bad because it lacks a very commonly-used tool (screwdriver), the latter is bad because it literally only has one single tool, even if that tool is quite commonly useful for a typical suburban family. One would, in fact, expect that both of these tool sets, if sold as such, would be considered inadequate. Every toolset needs, as a matter of business, to aim for the fewest tools they can justify (because that saves money) while still being diverse—one might even say flexible—enough to meet customers' needs.

A grout removal tool is pretty specific, as are some of the others. Not like a saw, hammer, crescent-wrench, some screwdrivers (preferably flathead, Phillips-head, and at least one or two more), some kind of sharp implement (e.g. utility knife), etc. These are things likely to be useful in a variety of common contexts--and thus things likely to be useful in a tool set. (A jigsaw specifically might be too much, but a compact hacksaw would make sense and be easy to store.) Such a toolbox would be "flexible," in the sense of handling a lot of different circumstances.

A knife is a flexible tool. It can do an awful lot of things. It is not a perfect tool for every possible circumstance, which may mean creating a new tool is warranted. A knife may be useful for doing such a thing.

That said, an issue with the analogy is that each tool really does only one physical thing: hitting stuff, twisting fasteners, cutting through materials, twisting other kinds of fasteners, etc., and the end-user cannot meaningfully change this without going out and buying more tools. In theory you can use your tools to make better or more specific tools, that's how new tools came to be in the first place, but it's an enormous amount of work. Not so for TTRPG stuff. Even for 3e, (in)famous for trying to have prodigious discrete rules, many rules cover multiple kinds of situations. It becomes quite possible to build a reasonably comprehensive set of rules-tools, and to make a tool that sweetly and simply creates new tools. (Or...less sweetly and simply.)

To take your question to an extreme, is an RPG with no rules the most flexible?
I would say no—because it doesn't do anything at all. To again borrow your toolbox analogy, that's like saying that box C which contains nothing whatsoever is more flexible than either of the boxes provided, which is ridiculous.

Regarding armchair designers, isn't flexibility contemplated solely in view of modifications to the design? That is to say, no test of flexibility can be made where there is no flexing being done? Whether a system asks or does not ask users to be designers has no bearing on flexibility.
Surely not. Several people in this very thread have talked about re-applying the existing rules, without change, to situations other than the ones intended. E.g. Fate's Aspects have been brought up as flexible. I myself have cited DW and 4e as containing flexible structures, not because you can rewrite them, but because an individual tool or set of tools is capable of covering a plethora of situations. "Defy Danger" is the most commonly-used move in Dungeon World specifically because it is supremely flexible. Skill Challenges are flexible, able to apply to a huge swathe of relevant situations. 13A Montages. Etc.
 
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100% agree. 'No rule zero' is about i) this game works out of the box without needing to be changed, and ii) no one participant is empowered to make such changes unilaterally (and possibly in secret).
Hey! Are you saying that the entire "no rule zero" noise was a pure strawman argument?? I think very few would claim that it is impossible to play most rule zero games without making changes to or add rules (the original D&D is the only rpg I can remember having seen a reasonable argument for this to be the case). At best I think they can argue it would be a very rigid and poor experience.

And as I mentioned, when I have made any structural changes as a DM it has always been with potential for player feedback. If unilateral, secret structural changes has ever happened at a D&D table, it sound like a good horror-story material. I really don't think rule zero has ever been interpreted and used in such a way at any large scale. The only thing I can think of that is common knowledge of this kind would have been fudging - and if what the no rule zero proponents really tried to communicate was "no fudging in our games!" they really failed to get the message across.

I really got the impression the no rule zero voices were trying to express something more than simply "hey, we think our game is good without changing it, while we think those games suck without changing it".
 


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