How much is on the characters?

[jcbdragon]

I've seen different schools of thought on this, and wanted to see what folks here had to say.

Most DMs wouldn't send a low-level party into a high-level dungeon. It would be a slaughter, and that's usually only fun for the DM ;-).

So there's a certain amount of implied trust from the players that you're not going to send them to their automatic doom. If they are resourceful, they should stand a good chance of surviving their adventures.

Some campaign worlds have the adventurer's equivalent of Monster.Com job services -- guild halls or public posting boards where people can post notices of jobs they want to hire adventurers for. These may or may not include some sort of indicator of the difficulty (i.e. level) of the task.

What do you do with your group when the characters find themselves facing something WAY over their heads? Do you consider it "Darwinism in action" and let the characters live or (more likely) die, by the fate of the dice? Do you put in some sort of deus ex machina to bail them out at the last moment?

Personally, I rarely let characters die simply from "bad luck" (i.e. die rolls). On the other hand, if they're being stupid (or deliberately obstinate/difficult/etc) and it gets them killed, I figure that's on their heads.

What about you?

 

[xigbar]

5% of encounters SHOULD be over an adventuring groups head, as stated in the DMG. For the first dungeon I'm doing over the summer, I have an isolated room with a treasure chest with a young adult wyrm, and they have to sneak past it without being noticed, or be fried. The world doesn't level as your heros, there should always be a sense of possible instant doom.

 

[Greenfield]

I've often laid out worlds where there are troubles that are obviously beyond the PCs ability to handle, and trusted the PCs not to try skinny-dipping in a meat grinder.

Occasionally I'll get players who miss the clues and decide to go for a dip.

I try to make it clear that the world doesn't level with you. That there are things out there you should best avoid.

On the other hand, I've also had times when a high level party runs into a band of brigands or an Orc war party, and does a walk-over. Darwin works in both directions, after all.

The big thing is to let the players know in advance that you do this. Their characters grew up in the world, after all, so they should know that the Lord of Fire Mountain is a dragon whose been there pretty much forever (in human terms), and that he's best avoided, and that the bandits plaguing the south road are a recent development, and probably something suitable for a well ordered party of low level.

Some players can't take the hint though, and take it for granted that the DM wouldn't put a goal in their sights that they couldn't achieve.

 

[Vespucci]

I've seen different schools of thought on this, and wanted to see what folks here had to say.

Most DMs wouldn't send a low-level party into a high-level dungeon. It would be a slaughter, and that's usually only fun for the DM ;-).

So there's a certain amount of implied trust from the players that you're not going to send them to their automatic doom. If they are resourceful, they should stand a good chance of surviving their adventures.

I just want to mark that phrase for now.

What do you do with your group when the characters find themselves facing something WAY over their heads? Do you consider it "Darwinism in action" and let the characters live or (more likely) die, by the fate of the dice? Do you put in some sort of deus ex machina to bail them out at the last moment?

There are alternatives. One would hope that the characters attempt to flee when they're over their heads. It doesn't often occur to players to surrender, but a lot of enemies should demand it. If the party refuses, the death continues. If they accept, the ref gets a legitimate chance to ease their 'railroad envy'.

(SIDEBAR: 3.X has issues with this approach due to a focus on winning encounters. If the players know that their characters only get standard XP for looting (with bonus awards for cleverness, wit, well-placed buffoonery, drama, and all-round entertainment value), then they'll be less inclined to view every fight as winnable.)

Personally, I rarely let characters die simply from "bad luck" (i.e. die rolls). On the other hand, if they're being stupid (or deliberately obstinate/difficult/etc) and it gets them killed, I figure that's on their heads.

Look back up at that phrase I highlighted. Are you really giving them "a good chance", or are you engaging in plot protection? The dice are there to surprise everyone - ref included.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I've found with the people I play with and as we rotate DMing, it all depends on a few different factors, and these are all discussed in advance.

One buddy of mine DM's with save points. Not D&Dish, I know, but this allows him to throw things at us and we all die and then get back up. In his campaigns, Big Bad Monsters are frequent, and we have to be creative.

Another guy is pretty open with resurrections. a trip to the closest temple, a elder Druid Trent with Reincarnation, and so on, make it so baddies that take down a player don't mean the end.

I've ran campaigns where death occurred on occasion and players simply used it as the medium to introduce a new character that was more efficient than the previous one. An "Old friend of another PC", a "Member of that guy's guild is filling in", "a wondering Cleric who's slightly crazy has come alongside the party", and so on.

All of these options have been justifications for sending PCs into situations that are technically above their challenge rating, but still possible for them to defeat. Since most of my friends are veteran players, and take steps to protect and assist new players, we often make it through above CR encounters.

In addition, most of us as we DM run a reoccurring NPC or two that either tags along, or keeps tabs. We use these chatacters to be the DM's mouthpiece to say things like, "I Reeeeally don't think it's a good idea that we keep going down this hallway, given what we just saw. Something Even Bigger is likely to be down there at this time." And then leave it to the PC's to decide what they want to do.

 

[Jimlock]

In addition, most of us as we DM run a reoccurring NPC or two that either tags along, or keeps tabs. We use these chatacters to be the DM's mouthpiece to say things like, "I Reeeeally don't think it's a good idea that we keep going down this hallway, given what we just saw. Something Even Bigger is likely to be down there at this time." And then leave it to the PC's to decide what they want to do.

I sooooo DISagree with this method...

That's a railroady-plot's best friend...


AWAY FROM ME TOUR-GUIDE!!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I sooooo DISagree with this method...

That's a railroady-plot's best friend...


AWAY FROM ME TOUR-GUIDE!!

I hear you Jimlock. I'd enjoy playing a game where this is not the case, but most of my players are favorable to it. To each his own, there are many flavors of D&D!

 

[Jimlock]

I hear you Jimlock. I'd enjoy playing a game where this is not the case, but most of my players are favorable to it. To each his own, there are many flavors of D&D!

I wasn't taking a jab at you. We all (DMs) have done this...

I simply have reached a point where I hate this..

Sure there are many flavors of D&D, with that in mind i said:

AWAY FROM ME TOUR-GUIDE!!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Gilladian]

My current campaign is a "dungeon-in-a-sandbox".

The dungeon is a traditional multi-level place, where deeper is more dangerous, and the PC level risk pretty much matches up with the dungeon-level. They know this.

The rest of the campaign setting is wide open. Bandits may be lurking anywhere, and they may easily be too powerful for the PCs. That wizard's tower is already drawn up. The wizard has a level, has abilities, followers, etc... and isn't changing no matter the PC level.

BUT, simply asking or checking the details of their own backstory will get them some clear hints about how dangerous (or not) a particular place may be. For example, the fighter PC and her caravan were attacked by bandits just before the campaign began. They got their butts kicked, and the 1st level fighter was clearly overwhelmed, having to flee into the forest with her (higher level) badly injured knight/mentor.