How much money does the avarage commoner need?

[Wolfen Priest]

For the idiots who do not read their own posts, a "cutting edge" weapon was half a year to a full years income for a peasant. It did not have to be "masterworks" or anything special. Just trying to buy a regular, run of the mill, flintlock would set a peasant back a half a year.

Except you are assuming a flintlock in the 17th century is at the same level of technology and/or same price scheme as a sword in a typical D&D world. I'm not sure that's the case. If you can give me the price of a typical sword in 14th century Europe, then at least we're comparing apples to apples (not that it's necessarily relevant to a D&D game anyway).

In the real world a peasant was happy for someone to give them a Shilling. It was 2-3 months rent a third of a week's wages or about the price of a lamb. It was also about the price of a yard of cloth to make a tunic. It was also about a 13th of the dowary for the average peasant bride.

Ok, that's fine. Let me ask you this then: in the real world, did armored fighters and powerful wizards run around slaying dragons and looting huge amounts of wealth from their hordes? Were magic items and spellbooks available for sale (at exhorbitant prices) in most large cities? Were there druids to help make sure the crop came in? Were there clerics in temples who could heal any wound, even bring back the dead? How many campaigns are set in the real world anyway?

 

[Wolfen Priest]

I just can't help it.

Originally posted by Col_Pladoh
Just reading the most recent posts on the economics of D&D. Whew! What a lot og gyrations are needed to recncile all the problems. I feel guilty as I started the mess...although I didn't promulgate it to the point it is now. anyway...

What a far simpler, generic, sysyem the "$" one I use. Prices of some things need to be set for the game, of course, but all the worry about income, general prices of cmmon goods, etc. is easily covered. Sure makes running a campaign much easier

Gary

 

[Celebrim]

"1) commoners WERE required by law to have a weapon - as they might be conscripted at any time."

That statement needs a bit of ammending, since the actual situation was complex. Free commoners were required to have a weapon in some cultures. Notably England encouraged all freemen (Yeomen) to own and practice with a longbow after. If you had above a certain income (essentially if you were middle class) you were in some cultures required to provide more complete arms - for instance a spear, sword, and shield in ancient Athens, or mail and a spear in 12th century Europe. However, weapons in general were restricted, and the ownership of weapons by serfs themselves was often frowned upon. Swords in particular were either forbidden to the lower classes or else heavily taxed (the Sword Tax). Some efforts were made to restrict access to crossbows (generally unsuccessfully). Armor itself was generally a priviledge reserved to knights and thier immediate retainers.

On the question of the cost of purchasing a sword, a cheap sword cost between 7 and 20 days wages (actually, information on weapon prices is pretty scant especially in the medieval period ) for a common laborer in England in the period between the late middle ages and Elizabethian times, which works out to between $350 and $1000 dollars today - roughly what you would expect for a mass produced firearm or a hand crafted sword of medium quality today. Assuming a 1 g.p. standard (laborers make about 1 g.p. a day), swords are not terribly priced in the PH, though the price list in general (like the weapon weights) reflects more Diablo style balance issues than actual reality. A trained charger could cost 500-900 days wages, slightly hirer than in the DMG, but certainly closer to the correct price than if we assume a 1 s.p. wage standard. We simply assume a relative abundance of gold in our campaign world, modify wages accordingly, fix the profession skill and viola.

Like I mentioned, actual information on weapon prices in the middle ages is scarce, but you could actually work out how much a knight's sword should cost from things we do know, like the wages of weaponsmiths, the time required to make the sword, and the amount of wood required to make the charcoal. I don't remember the exact math but I do remember that it works out to be about 70 days wages. We can assume a masterfully made weapon would be somewhat more expensive than that.

Before standardization and mass production techniques were introduced, every peice on a flintlock had to be individually crafted to fit all the other peices. Thus, the relative price of a high quality firearm is certainly higher than the relative cost of a sword, and more akin to the price of armor (which also involved multiple hand crafted peices).

 

[drnuncheon]

But what if the campaign is not based on a feudal economy at all? Then, rather than talking about serf-like peasants laboring under a lord, we might be talking about a cobbler or tanner, working in a city as a member of a craft-guild. In such a case, according to the rules at least, the person would indeed earn about a silver piece a day (not seasonal).

Not true. The 1 sp/day is for unskilled labor, not for craftsmen of any kind. Read that again: unskilled. Like 'pick up this sack and put it on that wagon' kind of unskilled. Or 'shovel out the garderobe' kindof unskilled. The guy who has 2-4 ranks in Profession or Craft or Handle Animal or whatever is making more money and living considerably better.

Everyone seems to forget this - or in Wolfen's case, miss or ignore it, since it's been brought up a couple times before in this thread.

Green Knight brings up some interesting points, but look at what he's saying: "And when it comes to the average Commoner, they're most likely to use a Feat on something like Skill Focus (Profession/Craft) to improve their skills in their job which'll net them more money to feed and clothe their families with"

See, I don't think that every feat is something you /choose/, any more than you choose your stats. Sure, some of them represent training, especially the Fighter feats. But some of them are natural inclination, too, and you don't get to choose that.

Someone might have Alertness because they're naturally keen of sight and hearing - or maybe they have a bit of elven blood somewhere along the line. They may never have trained their senses - it's just a natural talent. Someone with Skill Focus has a 'knack' for a certain skill - they're a "natural". They didn't get to choose what would be the most advantageous feat to have, they took what they were born with.

There are several feats suitable for being "natural talent": Alertness, Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Run, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, and Toughness from the PHB alone. I think that to be realistic, most of the average person's feats should be randomly picked from that list, to represent their natural inclinations. Very few people have the drive to force themselves to be "the best" at their job - which is what choosing Skill Focus would mean, by necessity.

And yeah, that means that somewhere out there, there are peasants with Spell Focus: Necromancy and Skill Focus: Scry. They probably never find out about it. Life is like that sometimes - you don't always get to make the best choices and you aren't always placed in the optimum position.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

PHB, page 96: "A skilled (but not exceptional) artisan can make a gold piece per day." Just thought I'd add that in, too, as it underscores the fact that the 1 sp/day is for Joe Heavy Lifter. (And not even Joe Skilled Heavy Lifter the longshoreman...)

J

 

[NLP]

Like I mentioned, actual information on weapon prices in the middle ages is scarce, but you could actually work out how much a knight's sword should cost from things we do know, like the wages of weaponsmiths, the time required to make the sword, and the amount of wood required to make the charcoal. I don't remember the exact math but I do remember that it works out to be about 70 days wages. We can assume a masterfully made weapon would be somewhat more expensive than that.

Both of these books list prices of weapon and armor, as well as many other items and living standards, in the Middle Ages:

Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages, Christopher Dyer, Cambridge University Press, 1989

English Weapons & Warfare, 449-1660, A. V. B. Norman and Don Pottinger, Barnes & Noble, 1992 (orig. 1966)

I have found both of them to be quite useful.