D&D 5E How Old-School is 5th Edition? Can it even do Old-School?

[Micah Sweet]

I wouldn't want to play in a game where characters couldn't die, but it's quite a leap to say that lack of character death = no challenges, setbacks, or risks.

To me, those other risks only matter in D&D if death is also on the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The DMG even acknowledges the game can be low or high, but neither are the standard (which is in between) by the table for Starting Equipment on page 38.

So, I don't consider the default high magic as you suggest. I know the default certainly isn't low magic! It is determined by the DM/table and how the world is presented to the players.

I would add that it is also determined by the tiers IMO for most groups. Most games never make it to tier 3, let along tier 4, so casters don't really have to be limited to make your world "low magic".

5E can certainly be high magic IF you are engaged in the higher levels at some point, give out tons of magic items, narrate your world is high magic because it is super common (streets lit by continual flame spells in any significant established community), etc.

I very much consider my game low magic, mostly because magic is rare. Casters are rare, you don't have a priest in every town to raise dead (as EGG suggested at one point IIRC...), and finding magic items, especially permanent ones are a true treasure!

Magic doesn't feel rare if all the PCs are running around casting spells all the time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Which is why I also mention the idea of relative to tiers of play and the narrative of the world Either way, what is "high magic" is subjective.

As to other fantasy games, I couldn't really say, D&D is pretty much the only fantasy game I've played. For other fiction, most of the fiction I've read is D&D-based, with only a couple exceptions--some less magical, some more.

Funny thing. The recent release Legend of Vox Machina on Amazon is based on a long-running streaming D&D campaign, but the show itself feels lower magic than most D&D campaigns i know (including the one it was based on).

 

[Micah Sweet]

That seems like a weird and twisted bit of logic. If the 5E warlock is supposed to be "average population", then by that standard the B/X magic-user should be too.

Even the 1E DMG points out the fact that player characters are not average individuals and atypical from the "common man", right in the section on bell curves, stats and the like.

I guess the question becomes,"How atypical are the PCs"? The gap seems to be getting wider and wider every time WotC opens their mouths lately.

 

[overgeeked]

Magic doesn't feel rare if all the PCs are running around casting spells all the time.

Exactly. I prefer much lower magic and much more dangerous magic. Gimme the spellcasting, spellburn, misfire, corruption, sacrifices, ritual magic, patrons, and patron taint from DCC. I don't mind the PCs being powerful, I just want there to be a cost.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, given the concepts you include below, how would you (anyone, not just @Voadam) use them to "improve 5th edition"?
How would you implement them?

I know how I might, but I am curious what others would do.

• Use in-depth descriptions from both the DM and player to increase character immersion.
• Handle interactions more free-form and less with dice rolling mechanics.
• Focus more on player decisions than mechanics.
• Go with the player presented concept of their character more than the stats written on their sheet.

• sandboxing and random encounters
• higher lethality in tone
• more of a gold acquisition orientation
• resource management importance
• mega-dungeoneering

I think given all the ideas/ suggestions, it would be interesting to create a document with ways to incorporate ideas for giving 5E and old school feel, offering dozens of variants (like those in the DMG for a grittier feel) which would bring these concepts into the game.

Replace the entire exploration system (and likely the ranger) with the journey rules in Level Up, for starters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Magic doesn't feel rare if all the PCs are running around casting spells all the time.

So, don't do that.

Funny thing. The recent release Legend of Vox Machina on Amazon is based on a long-running streaming D&D campaign, but the show itself feels lower magic than most D&D campaigns i know (including the one it was based on).

No idea. I don't watch it because I think it is offensive garbage. YMMV, of course.

Replace the entire exploration system (and likely the ranger) with the journey rules in Level Up, for starters.

If someone buys me a copy, I might, but I will have to wait to see just how they did it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, don't do that.


No idea. I don't watch it because I think it is offensive garbage. YMMV, of course.


If someone buys me a copy, I might, but I will have to wait to see just how they did it.

One issue I've found is that, since most changes to 5e to make it more Old School involve limiting the player's abilities or otherwise adding restrictions, it can be difficult to get player buy-in. The modern player really hates having their toys taken away.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The modern player really hates having their toys taken away.

VERY TRUE!

 

[overgeeked]

One issue I've found is that, since most changes to 5e to make it more Old School involve limiting the player's abilities or otherwise adding restrictions, it can be difficult to get player buy-in. The modern player really hates having their toys taken away.

It’s infinitely easier to add toys than remove them. Then you’re Santa doling out presents instead of Scrooge taking them away.