D&D 5E How Old-School is 5th Edition? Can it even do Old-School?

[abirdcall]

The specific details in the OP aren't my experience but besides that it doesn't touch on what I like about how 5e has returned to an older style of play.

In 3e interaction interaction with the world became a matter of 'hitting buttons'. Instead of describing what your character was doing the player would say "I use X skill".

5e has reversed that. The game is much more in the DM's hands now and the players are back to interacting with the world and using their imagination to solve problems rather than just the powers written on their sheet.

To me that is what changed to return D&D to an 'old school' way of play. Not the healing 1-2 HP per day of rest which is just not something I find useful or desirable.

 

[Umbran]

Isn't "get[ing] completely different answers" from different people kind of the point, though, from such an open-ended enquiry?

You'd have to ask the OP if that's their point. I wouldn't expect it to be a useful point, however.

 

[overgeeked]

For me and my definition of old school, no it really really doesn't. Not it the slightest. It seems designed to explicitly be the opposite of what I like about old-school D&D. For me, old-school D&D is a few things that are closely related. Some more necessary than others, but they're all in there.

Weak starting characters. 5E takes the opposite approach. Quite powerful starting characters is the default. High stats, lots of hit points, many skills, lots of powers to pick form, and lots of combat ability for everyone. All casters have infinite cantrips that are as good as or better than most weapons in the game. Various cantrips and 1st-level spells are so good they're broken and these are seen as the default. With the prevalence of optimization, whatever lists of "good - better - best" abilities, feats, skills, spells, maneuvers, etc are widely dispersed and these are seen as the only smart or viable choice.

Zero to hero. 5E takes the opposite approach. Characters start very powerful compared to older editions and their power increases rather drastically from there. In 5E, characters start as heroes become superheroes, demigods, and gods.

Easy character death. 5E takes the opposite approach. There's a wild amount of healing in the game, even from 1st level. Once your hit points are gone you have to take up to 3 more hits or fail three 50% saves before dying...and if even a single hit point is healed...you start that 3-step cycle all over again. So the default healing style in 5E accounts for that and is less than affectionately known as "pop-up healing". So while character death does occasionally happen, it's quite rare in my experience. Even when a bad guy would single out and focus down a specific character healing is so plentiful and overpowered that characters might as well be immortal. Then there's the superhero regeneration of hit points with an 8-hour rest.

Quick character creation. If characters are going to be easily killed off, then character creation should be quick and easy...5E takes the opposite approach. You can streamline character creation up to a point, but even then you're not to the point of old-school D&D speed of character creation. This is also a player base thing. Times have changed and most players don't seem that interested in disposable characters. Rather personalized epics focused on their characters and how cool they are.

Exploration. The TSR editions of D&D had a lot of focus on exploration which WotC trashed. In 5E exploration is a joke. What is there is toothless to the point of wasting page count to related the "rules" to the player and DM. There are so many skip buttons from class and subclass abilities and spells that obviate what minimal challenge there is in exploration in 5E that you either need to house rule the hell out of the relevant systems to make it worth engaging with or you just skip it entirely.

Variety of game play. Dungeons, wilderness exploration, town and city politics, domain management, regional powers, eventually gaining great power and potentially becoming a god. I liked that the default assumption of what you'd be doing in the game changed as you leveled. This is mostly from the Basic line but there was some support for some of these in AD&D. That variety has been collapsed down to almost nothing. The only thing that changes as you level is the names of the monsters you kill.

Unexpected and weird. Though I didn't play 2E, I absolutely love the settings. Al-Qadim, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer are three of my top four. Mystara / Known World is another. I love the weird and unexpected of the OSR. Not the childish edgy for edgy's sake stuff. But the honestly bizarre. I really miss that about old-school D&D. It simply doesn't exist in 5E. DM's can convert stuff and there's some really good 3PP stuff that scratches a similar itch, but the default 5E is bland as bland can be.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I really like @overgeeked's summary. I think it is pretty spot on!

One thing I would like to add, which might or might not have already been expressed, and is related to this point:

Times have changed and most players don't seem that interested in disposable characters. Rather personalize epics focused on their characters and how cool they are.

(bold added)

IME, old-school games were about THE ADVENTURE, not the PCs. Now, 5E seems (IMO) to revolve too much around the characters, what stuff they can get, etc., in other words, "how cool they are." Because advancement was (generally) slower in than in 5E, when you finally did level it was great, but often you might have just gotten more hit points and little, if anything, else. In 5E, PCs are virtually guaranteed to get something cool each and every level. It seems to shift the focus to leveling up the PC instead of enjoying the adventure.

That's just my take on it.

EDIT: Something I thought of that I would like to add, but PLEASE don't take this as an invite to an edition war or anything, just an observation:

In AD&D, the PHB was a scant 128 pages. The DMG was 239 pages. And if you want to include Unearthed Arcana, you add roughly 72 pages of player content, and 56 pages of DM material. So, total is 200 pages for players and 295 for DMs. About a 40/60 split almost. The DM has about 50% more content.

By comparison, for 5E, the PHB is 317 pages and the DMG is 320 (much of which is really fluff IMO...). Adding XGtE, and players get another 101 pages and the DM 91. So, over all its about 418 pages for players and 411 for DMs. Roughly even.

Just something to consider. Draw your own (if any) conclusions.

 

[jdrakeh]

Into the Unknown is specifically a OD&D clone built on the chassis of 5e so, yes, it can do old school. Check out Into the Unknown here:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

 

[Malmuria]

In AD&D, the PHB was a scant 128 pages. The DMG was 239 pages. And if you want to include Unearthed Arcana, you add roughly 72 pages of player content, and 56 pages of DM material. So, total is 200 pages for players and 295 for DMs. About a 40/60 split almost. The DM has about 50% more content.

Granted, this is partially because of the tiny font size in those books

 

[Voadam]

EDIT: Something I thought of that I would like to add, but PLEASE don't take this as an invite to an edition war or anything, just an observation:

In AD&D, the PHB was a scant 128 pages. The DMG was 239 pages. And if you want to include Unearthed Arcana, you add roughly 72 pages of player content, and 56 pages of DM material. So, total is 200 pages for players and 295 for DMs. About a 40/60 split almost. The DM has about 50% more content.

By comparison, for 5E, the PHB is 317 pages and the DMG is 320 (much of which is really fluff IMO...). Adding XGtE, and players get another 101 pages and the DM 91. So, over all its about 418 pages for players and 411 for DMs. Roughly even.

Just something to consider. Draw your own (if any) conclusions.

That's 1e AD&D.

The PDF I have of the Revised AD&D 2e PH is 322 pages. Without adding Tome of Magic, the Four Wizard Spell Encyclopedias, the three Priest Spell Encyclopedias or any of the various Complete Handbooks or Player's Options Books.

The Revised AD&D 2e DMG PDF is 258 pages. Then there are the Tome of Artifacts, Magic Item Encyclopedias, and such.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's 1e AD&D.

That would be correct. AD&D. Not AD&D 2E.

 

[Voadam]

That would be correct. AD&D. Not AD&D 2E.

And to be even more representative 1981's B/X was a master class of concision with the 64 page Basic Set and the 64 page Expert Set to cover players and DMs for a whole 1-14 D&D game rule set.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not very old school at all but it mined some good concepts from it.