How picky is HIDE

[Lareit]

I'm not certain really where this question should go. Since i frequent the rules forum the most however i belive this probally will suit it best.
3.0 Rules
I'm playing a halfling rogue.
Dex is 22 +6
level 4 so hide is +7
Size modifier is +4
Cloak of Elven kind +10
Sneaky Feat +2

My hide skill is going at a +29

so my hide is 39 on average.

Thats an absurd # to try and beat on a decent basis. However my dm almost always objects that I couldn't realisticly hide in some of the places i try to "Hide".
1. On a peir, at night, sneaking up on pirates.
2. In a sparesly furnished room, at night
3. On a boat, during the day, during a battle between two seperate parties, neither of which included me.


How picky should beating the HIDE checks based on terrain be honestly. I agree in all REAL worlds there is no way a person could hide under certain circumstances but in the D&D world where demons,dragons and magic are widespread i don't see the difficulty with letting my Sneaker, be able to sneak.

I apolygize is this is the wrong bored for this, but honestly, does anyone else have a problem with their dm making their Hide builds go to waste due to "realism", or does the opposite happen, people abuse their hide builds to be invisible for all purposes?

 

[Crothian]

I'd suggest circumstance modifiers. For instance if it's dark, making it easier to hide I'd grant a +2. However, if there is little room to hide I'd give a -5 or something. You are right your hide skill is obscene, but that's what the character does best (I hope!!) so you shouldn't be punished by that.

 

[clark411]

To sum it up in a few words: Hide is as picky as your DM wishes.

If he's into realism, you can't just walk along at 10 ft per round in the darkness to evade sight. If he's into roleplaying, you may have to do more than just say "I hide... I rolled a 38." Whatever he is, you'll do best figuring it out and working with it.

Generally speaking, hiding is about using the environment to avoid detection... and it being dark is not necessarily sufficient reason for you to be able to hide, nor is the presence of one bit of brush or pole. Concealment may be enough, but the dark isn't concealment for anything with darkvision, and anything other than total darkness won't be enough for low light vision.

For instance, on the pier, lets assume there's some moonlight and there are shadows made, including those by spaced out poles holding sconces/rushlights that often frequent places that risk falling into water or otherwise hurting themselves. Even if these poles aren't that far apart, there is nothing beyond being invisible that can allow you to negate, from every direction, the detection of movement on the periphery of their vision.

In a sparcely furnished room at night, sure you may be able to find a spot to hide, but again, this is up to your DM. If you are able to hide, you probably will not be able to move.

In the battle, even if you are not the center of attention, you cannot hide if you're currently being observed. If absolutely no one is looking at you, you're golden. If someone is after your throat however, you can probably hide in a barrel away from 95% of the people who did not notice, but that person who saw you could easily come up and put his sword through it.

Being Good at something, and being Able to Do something are slightly different things that make a big deal of difference in dangerous circumstances. Unless your score is so epic that you can manipulate the minds of those you hide from to look the other way, or warp space to negate the presense of any bit of light, you'll have to do more than find dark spots and roll.

Personally, I'd recommend going about it in a different way from thinking "Darkness means Baldur's Gate Hide In Shadows Action!" So you're a sneaky rogue moving down a pier... why aren't you brachiating underneath the boards of the pier? You're in the middle of a battle? What in blue blazes are you doing trying to hide exactly in the middle of a battle? Move and find a spot. Evade people who may follow you, find a nook to slip into. Sparcely decorated rooms that don't have an escape route are to be AVOIDED, not used for hiding. Find one with a window, and hide by hanging out of the ledge or sliding up on a roof to avoid direct observation.

If you've got the goods and mechanical competance to be extremely sneaky, then you should either come to an agreement with your DM that you'll either attempt to act sneaky (and not depend totally on your rolls, trying to move at half speed in concealed open terrain) or that you'll take penalties for doing such "I deserve to be seen" stuff.

 

[FrankTrollman]

The rules say that if you have 10 ranks in Hide you can charge and "only" suffer a -20. That means that you can run full bore thirty feet into someone and shove them out a window without anyone seeing you if you can beat their spot by 20 points.

Now, how close to that walking through an empty field is, is really up to the DM. That's all there is to it, really.

-Frank

 

[Zaruthustran]

The rules say that if you have 10 ranks in Hide you can charge and "only" suffer a -20. That means that you can run full bore thirty feet into someone and shove them out a window without anyone seeing you if you can beat their spot by 20 points.

Now, how close to that walking through an empty field is, is really up to the DM. That's all there is to it, really.

-Frank

LOL. Frank, you crack me up. I love your examples because someone is always getting shoved out a tower window.

Clark411, here's an SRD quote:
"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide."

If you run full bore at someone you suffer a -20 to your Hide check but you do get to attempt it--as long as you're not being observed and you have some form of cover or concealment.

So, you bull rush charge while trying to hide. You roll your hide check, taking a -20, and get a 19. The guy you're charging rolls a 10 spot so he doesn't see you coming. His buddies roll a 13 and a 3 spot so they don't see you either. (They may or may not make their Listen rolls and you may or may not make your Move Silently rolls but that's not important right now).

You're successfully hiding so you're effectively invisible to your target. You can't take AoOs on an invisible person so you just roll your bull rush Str check.

Attacking reveals your position. The guy you shoved is out the window and thinking "oh no, not again" so he doesn't matter. But his two buddies see you clear as day. If you had a move left I suppose you could attempt to Hide again (at a -20 penalty) but you don't have a move left.

So the two buddies attack you. Now it's your turn. You're being observed so you can't hide at all--even if you take -20. You could, however, take a double move or tumble move away, get behind a bunch of boxes, and drop to the ground as a free action. That'll give you full cover and remove you from sight. You can try to Hide again. Problem is the bad guys will have a good idea of where you are (they saw you roll behind those boxes). Armed with this information they can move in such a way to see around the cover, eliminating the conditions for your Hide and revealing you for their attacks. Time to scatter caltrops and make tracks. Er, without the actual leaving of tracks, of course.

Just remember that Hide is not the same thing as non-magical Invisibility. For example: if you use your Hide skill and jump in a bare closet, and then someone looks in that closet, that someone sees you automatically--there's nowhere to hide*. You're observed.

I think the thing you want is Hide In Plain Sight.

One last comment: just because someone sees you doesn't mean that they see *you*. I'm thinking of the pier example. Sure, those pirates might have noticed a small shape moving towards them. But good use of the Disguise skill (coupled swith Spot penalties for distance and poor light) might lead them to believe you're a drunk, or a kid, or a drunk kid, or a rodent of unusual size. It's not like being Spotted = you jumping up and down with a big neon sign that says "HALFLING ROGUE PC--PAY ATTENTION TO ME! ATTACK ME!" Chances are, you'd be noticed but ignored. People (and pirates) are lazy.

-z

* Of course there's somewhere to hide! Put that Climb skill to good use and hide in the shadows in the corner of the ceiling! That bit of concealment might just be enough for a Small rogue. Or Hide behind the door as he opens it (full cover!).

 

[Hypersmurf]

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway."

Check the original message again:

"3.0 Rules."

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm not certain really where this question should go. Since i frequent the rules forum the most however i belive this probally will suit it best.
3.0 Rules

<snip>

I apolygize is this is the wrong bored for this, but honestly, does anyone else have a problem with their dm making their Hide builds go to waste due to "realism", or does the opposite happen, people abuse their hide builds to be invisible for all purposes?

I think this emphasises the reason why in ver 3.5 they decided to clarify the issue of hiding. Under 3.0 rules it comes down purely to DMs descretion. I recommend you show your DM the 3.5 rules (any cover or concealment) and ask whether you can introduce them as house rules. Simple, efficient, good for you and the DM, no real knock-on effect elsewhere either.

Cheers

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I apolygize is this is the wrong bored for this, but honestly, does anyone else have a problem with their dm making their Hide builds go to waste due to "realism", or does the opposite happen, people abuse their hide builds to be invisible for all purposes?

I saw CONSTANT abuse from the last rogue player I dealt with and the dm rolling over like a lonely puppy, so the clarification in 3.5 was very welcome.

I saw a medium sized humanoid "hiding" while being the first to open and go through a door into a well lit room full of enemies.

The same person "hid" in the middle of the street during a battle.

"Bluff and hide" was abused beyond all belief.

Circumstance modifiers were never applied to either hiding or bluffing.

I can see how it could be abused in the other direction, but due to traumatic flashbacks its harder to feel sympathy...

kahuna burger