D&D 5E (2014) How powerful do you make Identify?

[Yaarel]

As a concept,

Maybe the archmage can cast Identify as a kind of counter-spell, to negate later attempts to use Identify. Since the Archmage is a high level, the DC would be difficult for a low level mage to break thru.

Identify (reversible)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Identify says nothing about getting command words. I would say that getting the information "the item was turned to stone by a spell, and a command word will turn it back" is pretty useful, and not something you could necessarily otherwise guess.

Further, if the character's dig deep, I would probably write up the spell. As you describe it, it actually sounds like a variation of sequester, so it's really easy to put the mechanics together.

FWIW, I make identify powerful by removing the 'short rest identifies magical items and makes them useable' mechanic. I much more enjoy playing through the whole "what does this magic thing do" and "maybe I can find out just by using it" sequence than just revealing all to them when they sit about for an hour.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Although I have been running a 5e game for a year now, I only recently tripped over a situation in which a player used Identify and I realized that I had not really thought through the implications of what seems to be the intent of the spell description. Previously, my players had found several magic items, cast Identify on them, learned their properties and how to use them and everyone was happy. Then they came across an item that has been turned to stone, but will revert if a command word is spoken. They discovered it was magical with Detect Magic, and then (quite reasonably) cast Identify on it. This left me with two immediate problems and one larger one.

1. The spell that had been cast on it had no name. Perhaps I should have invented one, but instead I simply described the effect: the item had been transmuted and the effect was reversible by speaking a 'mundane incantation'. (I thought that should be fine, but it made the player of the Wizard cranky because he is under the impression that PHB spells are the only magical effects that [ought to] exist in the world. But I guess that is a topic for another thread.)
2. The caster that transmuted the item had no intention of producing an effect that could be worked around with a 1st level spell. But as written, Identify is (arguably) pretty potent ("you learn [the object's] properties and how to use them"). In this case, I did not disclose the command word. (This caused my Wizard player to give me the look that says, "Ok, you are the DM and it's no big deal, but that seems arbitrary." That look always causes me to worry.)
3. If I were to allow Identify to reveal the command word, how does it not become an "I win button" for many puzzle-type obstacles that are somehow magic-dependent?

For reference, here is the description of the spell.



Note 1: I realize that I might possibly have ruled that the object is, at this point, just mundane stone and so not magical, but a) that seemed cheesy, b) that boat has sailed, and c) it doesn't apply to the larger problem that I am concerned with.

Note 2: To bring the question into a more simple, standard context, you might consider, at least for starters: if a door is locked with Arcane Lock with a password, will using Identify reveal the password?

Anyway, thoughts?

In my campaign:

1. The spell consumes that material component. Casting it at a higher level uses a more expensive component.
2. It's a 1st level spell, and the amount of information gained is based on the equivalent spells levels in the item. So the more powerful the item, the less you'll likely get.
3. The more powerful the item, the more likely that you won't be able to determine any but the most basic information about the item.

A great many magic items in my campaign are essentially unique and have a history. So the spell will almost give you some of that history, which of course can lead them toward more research. It's not uncommon for them to discover additional properties later.

For example, the spell might identify the sword as Orcrist, that it glows in the presence of goblins and orcs, and that it is more deadly against those races. More specific abilities might be determined later.

Overall, though, the goal is for them to figure out everything the item can do. I just don't like it to always be fully known just because of a 1st level spell.

---

So for your other comments/questions.

First, I would recommend that you just mention to your players that if there's ever something that is a problem, or they question, or don't like, they need to tell you. Either then, or after the session. I don't respond to looks. If you don't tell me there's a problem, then there isn't one. Simple as that. On the flip side, don't assume you know what they are thinking because of a look. Nothing good comes of it.

In my campaign, almost any spell from any edition might show up, along with those I or my players have invented. But anytime there is a magical effect in my campaign, I have a rule to back it up. If I want a specific magical effect, or effects, then I feel it is important that I know exactly how it was accomplished. Nobody else may care, but I do. The PCs naturally do not have access to every spell ever created in the world. They should expect to find spells in their adventures, and sometimes they will be something they (the player or the character) may not have heard of. The spells in PotA and SCAG, not to mention a few in UA should alert the players that there is more than just the PHB when it comes to spells. In the 2e days they released 7 books (3 cleric, 4 wizard) that contained (almost) all of the spells published to that point. If I recall, I noted several hundred 1st-level wizard spells alone that have been published over the years.

Identify only works on an item. And really only a magic item that has abilities that can be used, and if needed, the command word. So if something is not a magic item, identify won't work. I prefer a bit more mystery in my campaign at times when it comes to more powerful items, but in general, if you're making a magic item available to them, then they should be able to use it. If there's an interesting story (or it might have some abilities you're not quite ready to let them have), then stalling a bit through research, or learning abilities later on is fine.

So magic "items" that don't meet those vague requirements cannot be identified at your discretion. For example, you can't use identify on a series of magical stones that must be pushed in a certain order. At best, you might be able to determine the school and general level of the spell, and that pushing it triggers the magic. But since each stone is independent, the sequence itself cannot be determined. In past editions there are spells that foil the use of detect magic, identify, and other common spells. Since these are cast on the items, the spell itself need not be made accessible to the PCs (not that they'd probably have much use for it). But again, knowing that they exist, and that you have rules to support it should alleviate concerns from the PCs.

Also note that 5e is based on the premise that giving the party a magic item that they cannot use is pointless. Note that identify isn't even needed RAW. Simply spending time with the item during a short rest is all that's needed. Identify is just a bit faster.

That's not to say that I think you shouldn't give them items they can't use due to class restrictions etc. Magic items in a horde can be just about anything. Otherwise, the most common source of magic items are their opponents, and they carry items that they can (and do!) use. That might not always be something the PCs can use.

 

[Li Shenron]

I do not think that Identify is supposed to reveal passwords. "How to use it" might be interpreted both as "You speak the password to deactivate the arcane lock" and as "You say 'Open Sesame' to deactivate the arcane lock", but I think the former is the RAI.

It's already powerful enough when it tells you that you need to find the password, and by the way sometimes it might reveal that after all a Dispel Magic would work.

That said, getting angry because "oh no, now you're forcing me to figure out the password" says a lot about the player's attitude towards the game... I'd much prefer a player getting excited because "oh YES! now we have to figure out the password, let's go!"

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I get the impression that for most magic items the command word is not supposed to be a big secret, it's just a convenient way to control when to trigger the magic. The command word might be unknown because whoever left the wand in an ancient tomb forgot to also leave the user manual.

So if you want to have a magic item that's designed with an actual "password" that's intended to be secret rather than a standard command word, then go ahead. If your wizard player gets cranky, tell him that he still has a lot left to learn about magic, and that no mortal can know everything.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In my campaign:
1. The spell consumes that material component. Casting it at a higher level uses a more expensive component.

Ouch! I mean I have no idea how money works in your campaign, but this seems really harsh compared with some other material components.

A great many magic items in my campaign are essentially unique and have a history. So the spell will almost give you some of that history, which of course can lead them toward more research. It's not uncommon for them to discover additional properties later.

That's cool, what do you have legend lore do?

Overall, though, the goal is for them to figure out everything the item can do. I just don't like it to always be fully known just because of a 1st level spell.

I agree to an extent, but it's not "just because of a 1st level spell". Knowing a specific spells means you spent a valuable character resource - so if someone has this spell, then they've made a pretty big choice (with a few exceptions).

That said, The fact that you fill out some history definitely makes up for the loss in specific information on functionality.

Identify only works on an item. And really only a magic item that has abilities that can be used, and if needed, the command word. So if something is not a magic item, identify won't work.

The new identify works on objects and creatures that are affected by spells, which I think is a good thing. It's a niche that needed to be filled.

So magic "items" that don't meet those vague requirements cannot be identified at your discretion. For example, you can't use identify on a series of magical stones that must be pushed in a certain order.

At the point of casting identify (especially in your game, where it's quite an expensive spell), I take that to be the players saying they're a bit stumped. So in this case, I'd at least tell the PCs that the magical stones do something (operate at a distance, make sound and light, whatever) when they are pushed, and that they're linked to each other. That should be enough to prompt them to make combinations at least.

Also note that 5e is based on the premise that giving the party a magic item that they cannot use is pointless. Note that identify isn't even needed RAW. Simply spending time with the item during a short rest is all that's needed. Identify is just a bit faster.

If you play this way, it seems identify has even more of a niche use. Am I misunderstanding, or are you really spending 100gp to skip the short rest requirement and get a bit of backstory?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Ouch! I mean I have no idea how money works in your campaign, but this seems really harsh compared with some other material components.

It's a bit tougher, but I still have quite a few spells that have limitations or risks to them. For example, any spell that interacts with another plane - teleport, find familiar, or gate, runs the risk of a fiend of some sort hitching a ride through the temporary portal. It's along the idea that using black magic is dangerous (and in my campaign, necromancy is).

I've been considering modifying it a bit. The AD&D/2e version was quite complex, but I've never been happy with "you learn everything." So I take a middle ground, at my discretion. Simple items that they should just be able to use are fine. A wand of magic missile? Yeah, you know what it is. I usually just give you the (finite) number of charges, since I generally don't want to bother tracking them myself.

As for money, it's pretty similar to the base rules. Easier than trying to change everything. Adventurers always end up with much more than they can use anyway.

That's cool, what do you have legend lore do?

Legend Lore is similar, although instead of identifying the history of its purpose and creation, it covers more about what has happened since then. Great battles it has seen, who has wielded it, etc. This grew in part from the great amount of lore that Ed Greenwood always added to magic items and spellbooks that he published in Dragon magazine. I figured it's much more interesting if that is shared with the players, rather than just savored by the DM. So I started doing it myself.

Identify is more from the item's point of view, which is limited mostly to what it was created for and its abilities, and legend lore is kind of reading the residue of others.

I agree to an extent, but it's not "just because of a 1st level spell". Knowing a specific spells means you spent a valuable character resource - so if someone has this spell, then they've made a pretty big choice (with a few exceptions).

Yes, but you find a lot of spells in my campaign. I also have rules for learning spells you find, and you can attempt to cast spells you haven't mastered yet. So you pick and choose which spells you want to try to learn. So you'll never have a shortage of spells. Ritual spells (like identify) don't count against any potential maximum spells known in my campaign.

That said, The fact that you fill out some history definitely makes up for the loss in specific information on functionality.

The new identify works on objects and creatures that are affected by spells, which I think is a good thing. It's a niche that needed to be filled.

That's really what I'd expect detect magic for. Although it's not as specific, I'm ok with that. I pulled back detect magic quite a bit, only detecting the presence and relative strength.

At the point of casting identify (especially in your game, where it's quite an expensive spell), I take that to be the players saying they're a bit stumped. So in this case, I'd at least tell the PCs that the magical stones do something (operate at a distance, make sound and light, whatever) when they are pushed, and that they're linked to each other. That should be enough to prompt them to make combinations at least.

If you play this way, it seems identify has even more of a niche use. Am I misunderstanding, or are you really spending 100gp to skip the short rest requirement and get a bit of backstory?

The short rest ability has been rolled into knowledge checks, essentially. I (and my players - they were the first to complain it was too easy), like a bit of mystery and attachment to the campaign.

So there are basically 3 levels of things (coinciding roughly with what I consider as low (0-2nd level), mid (3rd-5th level), or high (6th+ level) level magic. A short rest is sufficient for low level stuff, identify for mid-level, and high level stuff usually needs a bit more research (but the other two aspects can provide some of the information).

While we don't role-play all of the details, having to go to a sage, or other expert for information adds something to the campaign. It's a great opportunity to feed information to the PCs. Anything that adds an expense to the game helps consume the steady supply of treasure. Being able to use some basic abilities (for example, a weapon with a bonus always works), but not others gives them something to be excited about going back to town to learn more, and something to look forward to in the next adventure. So something like the spell is used for something that's a bit more important than a simple wand. It gives them a starting point, and potential places to look for more information. Or clues to help them direct their research better. For example, if they go to a sage with the information they already know, then the sage has something to go on.

The other aspect of all of this, is that items that have a history, legends attached to them, and prior owners, attract attention. Perhaps a relative of a prior owner would like it. Maybe it's an important religious relic, and they feel compelled to return it to the appropriate temple. Of course, thieves come out of the woodwork when something unusual comes out. If they are attacked in town and draw steel, somebody might recognize the weapon, for example. That can be good or bad. All of this helps ground things in the world more.

But rather than the trend I see where people are designing magic items that improve as the character levels up, or unlocks abilities as they level up, it's more a question of when they discover them. The item already has them. If they want to spend the time and usually money to research the abilities, then they may get access to more powers earlier.

I should point out that in my campaign, level advancement is much slower. Typically about a year of play to reach 5th level, two years to 7th level. But it's not as important if you're getting access to some powers earlier due to magic items.

I tend to have more magic items than a lot of campaigns. The majority are consumable, and there are also monsters that feed on magic (and can drain magic items). So the handful that are more than that stand out a bit more. Just like there are adventures to find magic items, they have adventures (even if they aren't played out at the table) to learn more about them. For all practical purposes they'll know most everything before they head out for their next adventure, but there are exceptions.

My daughter started out (at 1st level) with her family's moonblade. She carried it wrapped, because not being accepted by it yet she, like anybody who isn't accepted by it, couldn't touch it without taking damage. One of her initial goals was to learn about the blade and how to wield it. It was a several month quest for her before she was able to do so. One of my favorite scenes (I think she was 10 at the time) was in a battle against a sorceress. So she decided to try to make it look like she accidentally dropped the sword as she was trying to escape and take cover. So she did, and the ploy worked. The sorceress attempted to pick it up and took a lot of damage as a result. Later on it was a very helpful and powerful item, although primarily against undead and fiends. Of course, at one point she lost it due to a magical trap. She was convinced it had to be there, and practically had to be dragged out of the room by her companions. She was mad for a little while. It was really cool, though, because after she got over the player shock, she turned it into character determination and played the part really, really well. When she did find it later on, she loved the arc, and totally got it.

 

[Harzel]

That said, getting angry because "oh no, now you're forcing me to figure out the password" says a lot about the player's attitude towards the game... I'd much prefer a player getting excited because "oh YES! now we have to figure out the password, let's go!"

To be fair, I think really he was more confused than angry. He generally has his own definite vision of how things should work. And he did not fuss, but set right to work trying to figure out the password. I've got no reason to complain - he is my most engaged player.

 

[Harzel]

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate the input.