How Rare should an Endless Quiver be?

Xeviat

Explorer
Hi everyone.

The DMG has the Quiver of Ehlonna, which is a Major uncommon item.

"Each of the quiver's three compartments connects to an extra dimensional space that allows the quiver to hold numerous items never wheing more than 2 pounds. (while never weighing, or is it saying the objects placed in it can't weigh more than 2 pounds?) The shortest compartment can hold up to sixty arrows, bolts, or similar objects. The longest compartment holds up to six long objects, such as bows, quarterstaffs, or spears.
You can draw any item the quiver contains as if doing so from a regular quiver or scabbard."

A bag of holding, on the other hand, is a minor uncommon item. Absolutely stuffing a bag of holding with capped quivers of arrows would work just fine as an endless quiver.

I find it odd that the quiver of Ehlonna is on the same table as Weapon +1. It's a utility item at best. Maybe they put it in the wrong place?

If a player in your group wanted to make an endless quiver, how rare would you make it? Unbreakable Arrows are a common item, after all.

Were there any bows that generate their own arrows?
 

Bobble

Villager
Think like a greedy player. ENDLESS arrows. How much does an arrow cost. How much could a PC make equipping the local army with arrows? Now, base it on how much GP he is going to generate from it.:devil:
 

Xeviat

Explorer
Think like a greedy player. ENDLESS arrows. How much does an arrow cost. How much could a PC make equipping the local army with arrows? Now, base it on how much GP he is going to generate from it.:devil:
Obviously they would disappear after hitting your target or if you put them down without attacking them.
 

oreofox

Explorer
A quiver that continuously made arrows, I think, would possibly be a major rare item. You could probably knock it down slightly if the arrows disappeared one round (6 seconds) after being removed from the quiver. Though, if you allowed such a thing, you might as well just not bother tracking ammunition.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Or perhaps its is a single arrow that returns to your bow knock or quiver after doing its deed.

How common to make these things seem flavor oriented ie game world flavor.

It might be very rare to the game world of course but all archer oriented heros have one variant or another ;)
 

ccs

39th lv DM
That's kiiiiiiiiinda the point. We don't track not costly material components, and arrows are functionally free.
So it's a almost a moot point in your game. You could just give one away for free with every bow or make it rarer than Thors' hammer & not notice an effect.

Me? I'm 100% against hand waiving ammo. Or most spell components for that matter. So in my games things that let you virtually ignore finite supply are exceedingly rare. (You might actually find Mjölnir 1st. :))
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
To my mind, the difference between the two is that you can draw arrows directly from a Quiver of Ehlonna, while a Bag of Holding you'd need to take out a quiver and prep it. It takes an action to pull something out of the bag of holding as per the DMG.

Historically, this would put the Quiver between a Bag of Holding and Heward's Handy Haversack, which is rare. (However the Haversack's special ability that whatever you want is on top is subverted because the 5e mechanics of retrieval is the same as the Bag of Holding - an action.)

Back to the original question. I'd make a quiver of unlimited non-magical arrows to be an common magic item, like from XGtE, and one that makes magic (but no plus) arrows to be an uncommon item. These are both compared to a common magic sword and an uncommon +1 sword, toned down some because it's giving you unlimited ammo - something that comes up rarely compared to just restocking when you can.

But in both cases they disappear a turn after being pulled forth, to avoid all of the "we'll build a castle from them!" types of player schemes. :)
 
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Bobble

Villager
Obviously they would disappear after hitting your target or if you put them down without attacking them.
Where does it state that in your original description? It is only obvious if you say it. Next time just thank me for finding a flaw in your proposed item. It is a sign of maturity.
 
I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Think like a greedy player. ENDLESS arrows. How much does an arrow cost. How much could a PC make equipping the local army with arrows? Now, base it on how much GP he is going to generate from it.:devil:
We solved this problem by having the arrows dissipate after an hour. That might be long enough to pull the wool over someone's eyes if you act quickly, but it's not typically enough time to escape the consequences.
 

Bacon Bits

Adventurer
I'd make the item as common as a driftglobe, but we don't track ammunition. We charge players 10-20 gp for a quiver and then we don't track it anymore because tracking arrows is extremely boring. So you effectively get an endless quiver for 10-20 gp.

If I actually made the item and a player tried to be greedy, I'd just cap it in some way. Arrows only exist for X rounds or minutes. Only X arrows can be created at any one time. Only X arrows can be drawn per day. Only an attuned user can knock an arrow drawn from the quiver. Any one of a dozen possible limitations that I wouldn't mention until the player tried to do something obviously beyond the scope of "you don't have to worry about your personal ammunition supply."

Were there any bows that generate their own arrows?
Crossbow of Loading or Quickness, I think? I don't think that made it to 5e.

The Artificer has an infusion that makes a crossbow create bolts when it's drawn.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I find it odd that the quiver of Ehlonna is on the same table as Weapon +1. It's a utility item at best. Maybe they put it in the wrong place?

If a player in your group wanted to make an endless quiver, how rare would you make it? Unbreakable Arrows are a common item, after all.

It's not odd; as people have already alluded to, it's really going to depend on your campaign, and why you want to introduce the item.

For purposes of illustration, allow me to use the original, old school, 1e (AD&D) Bag of Holding as an example.

Now, how "useful" the Bag of Holding was depended entirely on the type of campaign you were in. I would argue that in 2/3 types of campaign, it was a useless item. Allow me to explain.

In old school D&D, encumbrance and weight could be a big issue because of COINS. 10 to a pound. And they weighed the same even for lesser coins (like copper or silver). So 1000 cp had the same value as 1 pp, despite weighing 1000 times more. And coins weighed 10/pound.

Now there were solutions- gems, moneychangers. But you still had to haul the stuff out. So, you had, generally, three approaches to this:

1. "Don't care." Tracking encumbrance is hard and annoying, so ... don't. For this style, who cares if you have a bag of holding? It's not like anyone is tracking where all that loot and equipment is going, and tallying up the weight.

2. "Rules matter, but I don't care." In some campaigns, the DM and the players care deeply about the "rules" (realism, whatever) except ... they also don't care. They want to, but they don't. So they acknowledge the rules exist, and then immediately look for a way to get around it. In these campaigns, expect a Bag of Holding (or portable hole, whatever) to immediately be found in order to solve the encumbrance problem. Again, the actual item doesn't matter, because it's just a means to an end - paying lip service to the rule. And then no one cares- it's just, "We have a bag of holding, so we don't have to worry about it."

3. "I'm all about the encumbrance!" So, here's the thing. Some campaigns took that encumbrance seriously. To the extent that the party would need hirelings and/or oxen and/or Tenser's Floating Disk for treasure. And it STILL wasn't enough (what, how are you going to loot those valuable wine casks, huh?) for all the treasure. So in those campaigns, a Bag of Holding was SUPER DUPER AMAZINGLY valuable. But here's the thing- in those campaigns, it also wasn't ... well, all that. Because the average bag of holding (on a roll from 31-70, aka 40% of them, and through the upper 70 percentile in size) couldn't contain sharp objects (no loose arrow, sword), had a space limit of 70 cubic feet (the trunk of a large car) and a weight limit of 500 pounds (only 5000 coins). So, yes, it was both amazingly desirable, and also NOT all that.

And you could apply this to anything. Do you track food, or just have two weeks of rations that never go away?

And, in the instant case, do you care about tracking ammunition? Is you campaign 1, 2, or 3.

Because if it's 1 ... then why bother? No one cares. Just write 20 arrows at the beginning, and never change it.

If it's 2 (you care about rules in general, but not enough about following them), then just hand out an everfull quiver to each party member.

But if it's 3, then it is a VERY valuable magic item.


...there is no one-size, fits all answer. It really truly depends.
 
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