D&D 5E How Should 5E Magic Work?

[tuxgeo]

I would like to see the magic system be so flexible that each magic-user would use magic in the way it worked in the rules according to which that PC was built: an AD&D Wizard would be Vancian, while a 3E Sorcerer would be quasi-Vancian (with limited slots but no memorization), and a 3E Warlock could cast Eldritch Blast at will.

And those divergent magic systems would work at the same table at the same time, out of the same rulebook.

(I didn't vote because there was no "All of the above" choice.)

 

[Tallifer]

A compromise could be this:

Starter Box: Vancian wizard. (For completely new players with no friends to teach them and for players who only want that AD&D feel. All the hardcore players would naturally buy both books, just like they buy everything for their favourite edition now.)

Advanced Players' Handbook (published at the same time): AEDU wizard build; Essentials Warlock; Mana-using (power points) Sorcerer.

The Wizards of the Coast have already shown us that they can balance and combine AEDU, non-AEDU and Power Points in 4th edition (Wizard, Mage, Psion). Any problems can be ironed out in 5th edition.

 

[Wormwood]

After a (very) lengthy discussion with a couple of my players, we vote for At-Will/Encounter Powers only.

Barring that, we'd be willing to see a spell-point system that refreshes at the Encounter level.

In any event, the word "Day" should be purged from D&D terminology post effing haste.

 

[Number48]

What I would want would be combat-oriented stuff as powers, perhaps with 4E nod to Vancian by choosing between two choices for each every day. Then have the non-combat oriented stuff in a simple and limited Vancian style.

Spell points, though? Not unless you're real careful in design. Same for Vancian combat, actually. Very tempting for a group to blow all the points/high level spells in the first encounter, then go rest for a day and come back. You could have a cap on spell points cast per encounter. For Vancian you could have a cooldown in rounds equal to spell level for casting another spell of the same level (it would force optimal casting to, say, your 5th level spell on round 1, then 4, the 3, then 2, then 1 before another 5th would be available). Something like that I could get behind.

 

[Argyle King]

Yes.

I see no reason why powers of any sort have to work exactly one way.

Heck, a power point system would be fantastic for martial abilities, for adding that extra OOMPH to your attacks in a very granular manner.

I had suggested that somewhere. I can't remember which thread it was in though. I loosely based my concept on the ability to use Fatigue Points in GURPS; as well as the Threshold Magic system found in the Thaumatology book for that system. The idea was also loosely based on how D&D 4th Edition's Psionic classes work.

The idea I had in mind would lead to classes which work similarly to some of the Martial classes in D&D Essentials, but then add points of some sort which you could dump into your abilities. Burning points would allow 'extra oomph" to be put into an attack or perhaps allow you to push yourself to run faster and get a few extra squares of movement or maybe attempt a feverish defense to dodge out of the way of a trap.

 

[avin]

I have no preference, but it should be options.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It should work like it did in the first three editions. I think they can't bring back the non-4E crowd without this.

 

[steeldragons]

Magic in 5e by Steel Dragons (borrowing heavily from my own homebrewed system developed and changed over the years)

1) There are FOUR "magic" sources:
Arcane: research and study to harness and direct energiesthrough formulae, incantation, proper gesticulation, etc. Forcing the energy to bend to one's will.
Divine: energy directly imbued/accessed from some godly source.
Natural/Nature: energies that exist woven throughout the natural/physical world.
Primal/Spirit: energy imbued and/or harnessed and directed through connection/interaction with the Spirit world.

2) All spell systems are "Memorized" with some "Spontaneous/at will" casting allowed (for most casters) dependent on class. (could we get away from the Dread Word "Vancian" please? People just hate it and/or get automatically offensive/defensive about it. If my typing it hasn't immediately turned you off, please read on.)

The caster studies or prays or goes through some morning yoga or whatever and you receive/bolster/"fill up" your energy reserve for the day.

2a) An "Optional/Alternate Rules" sidebar for a Spell Point System for those who would prefer to use it across the board, or are savy enough to apply it to certain classes as they/the DM sees fit/the group agrees.

3) There is ONE spell chart. Anyone who uses spells (for the initial/base classes presented), uses this chart.

These are your number of spells per day with modifiers/bonus spells for high ability scores. Based on: Intelligence for MUs/Mages/Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics/Divine caster, Wisdom or Constitution (whichever's better/the player wants) for "Primal/Natural" casters (Druids, Shamans, etc)...Wisdom or Charisma (whichever's higher) for Bards.

Everyone gets bonus spells, so the days of 1 1st level spell are long gone, presuming that anyone playing a spellcaster is going to have/place their high scores in their "Primary Ability".

4) Spell Lists: (starter set spell lists really depend on how many levels the new set is going to try to cover, but for a limited page count, I would say only spells of 1-3rd level)
Mage: all of the Arcane spells/spell effects
Cleric: all of the Divine spells/spell effects
Druid: all of the Natural spells/spell effects
Shaman: a combination of some Arcane, some Divine, some Natural spell effects.
Bard: a combination of some (few) Arcane, some Divine, some (mostly) Natural spell effects...but differing from the Shamanic list.

Basically, if we are to go from the poll results of likely included classes, you would just need: MU, Cleric, Druid and Bard spell lists. Just including Shaman as an example for the "Primal" magic source.

5) Arcane casters: Wizards, Mages, MU's, Sorcerers (if you use/must have a separate class called "Sorcerer")
(Note: I have long maintained Bardic "music magic" as being more in their "druidic" Celtic origins/roots from 1e. So Bards are not/would no longer be considered "Arcane Casters" in the new edition, if I had my way).

Memorized magic with bonus spells per day for high Intelligence.

Cantrips (0 lvl magic): These are the simple tricks that the mage has been using and studying for years before their master/mentor ever allowed them near "real magic" a.k.a. 1st level spells.

Arcane casters have an allotment of cantrips per day that may be cast at will/as needed/when circumstances arrive. No memorizing necessary.

Yes, the effects are minimal fast and generally not flashy (except things like "Daze" or "Flare" to borrow from the d20SRD). But they are easily usable in a fight, in a tight corner, or just to make one appear more "magical" by opening/closing thigngs without touchign them or making minor phantasmal images appear. Also, Light and Detect Magic = Cantrips. Use them at your will/leisure...til your allotment for the day runs out, of course.

Following this thinking, that the mage increases in power and ability as they grow/the years go by, so that the lower level spells they've been using for a long time become "second nature" to them. Their need for "study and memorizing" is for those spells they haven't been using a long time.

The mage then also gains "spontaneous/at will" casting of other spells as they increase in level. In my own game, 2 spell levels lower than their highest castable spell. So, by the spell charts I use (the Basic and 1e charts, I don't know what they look like for 3 or 4e), a 5th level Wizard, highest spell level 3rd, can then cast his 1st level spells at will/no memorizing necessary. (if this seems like 'waiting too long" to people, I suppose you could do every level below...so a 3rd level mage would get spontaneous use of their 1st level spells, at 5th their 1st and 2nd level spells, etc. BUT, I personally think that's heading back to the "Wizards are too overpowered" argumets)

Yes, you are still beholden to your allotment per day and the contents of your spellbook (you cannot spontaneously cast something not in your spellbook), but you need not decide before breakfast "Do I want Magic Missile or Sleep today?"...once you are 5th+ level

6) Divine Casters (Clerics for our purposes as I would like to see Paladins either A) return to clerical spells gained only at HIGH levels or, preferably, B) No spell use at all. Divinely gifted "powers" yes. A Paladin still projects a field of Protection from Evil, can still Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, all that good stuff...But no spells.)

Divine casters/Clerics use the same chart as MUs adding bonus spells due to their (presumed) high Wisdom scores.

Casting for 1st and 2nd level spells is at will/spontaneous. The energy comes from their "connection" with the deity, but not necessarily the direct attention of the divine power, itself. (Even powerful gods can't be bothered with personally overseeing every Cure Light Wounds or Bless invocation that someone utters .

Once they move into 3rd or higher level spells, then yes, they need to choose per day...as these magics are specific, more powerful requests/effects that do require some "direct" attention (more likely from some divine intermediary than the actual god, but that's up to a DM to decide and play at in their cosmology, as desired).

Clerics do not have "Orisons: 0 lvl magics". They get weapons and armor and shields...they don't need "extra/at will" magic.

They may, however, receive additional spells and/or bonus "powers" that are spontaneously invoked related to their deity's domains/spheres of influence. A separate thread, that.

7) Druids (Natural casters) follow the same thing as Clerics.

Spontaneous choice of their daily allotments until requiring 3rd level spells. No 0 lvl magics (they get armor and weapons too, though not necessarily as good as clerics, not to mention animal assistance and the various and sundry "Druidic powers"...whatever those are decided to be.)

Beyond that, Druids may increase their spontaneous casting as per MUs. So when attaining 5th level spells, a Druid may also cast 3rd level spells spontaneously (something Clerics can not do).

Their magics are derived from a connection to the "natural energies" of the game world and their practiced command of them...they do not need a deity's attention or permission to do so...or so I reasoned to allow the higher tiered spontaneous casting that Clerics do not receive.

The need to "memorize" for them is basically the "holding in reserve" the much greater energies needed for 3rd+ lvl spells.

8) Primal casters (Shamans in my world, but one could make the case for them being Sorcerers, Witches as well, re-fluffed Warlocks, etc.), insofar as I've used/developed them for my world, require more ritual to their magics. They need longer times to prepare/cast and usually some form of totem ("implements", I think 4e introduced them as).

A "sacred" or "enchanted" bone or collection of feathers or staff or bean filled gourd or something that facilitates their connection to the Spirit world. Their spell allotment is enhanced by the use of the totem, in addition to any Ability bonus spells, though they can still cast without one...just not as many per day.

Because of the ritualistic nature of their practices (as well as their allowances for armor and weapons - roughly the same as druids), Primal casters DO need to "plan"/memorize their spells per day...and do not gain spontaneous casting at any point in their career.

This is made up for by the various "spirit powers" (which are generally used without ritual) they receive independent of their spell casting...which would be a whole 'nuthuh thread.

9) Bards...ah the bard...Well, since I didn't ever consider a Bard to be a "core/basic" class, they did/do have their own spell chart ("spellsong" chart) in my games.

For the purposes of this "how to in 5e", let's say (as I did above) they use the same chart as everyone else.

They are "Natural" casters, not "Arcane" ones. They are able to cast as per Druids.

They do harken back to the Wizard in that they must have/keep/record a "spellsong book" and consult it regularly ("practice") and add to it to increase their repertoire. So the spontaneous "performance" of magic is allowed for 1st and 2nd level "songs", so long as they are in their song-book.

Daily allotment bonus spells are dependent on their Wisdom or Charisma, instead of Constitution, (almost invariably, the Cha is going to be higher for Bard PCs, I would think).

I think that's all I have for Magic in DnD:TNG.

Happy Saturday, all.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Ahnehnois]

In any event, the word "Day" should be purged from D&D terminology post effing haste.

You know, I agree with that, but I want "encounter" gone first.

And realistically, it won't be D&D unless you have the Vancian ideal of memorizing spells every day in there somewhere so neither of us is likely to be fully satisfied.

 

[Zireael]

I voted powers. But I want them closer to 3e Tome of Battle manevuers than 4e powers. A mix of both.