How to address racism in a fantasy setting without it dragging down the game?


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Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Some of them definitely go up to at least 3 because you can teach a chimp sign language, and the ability to communicate using language in the defining difference between Int 2 and Int 3
okay guy who studied linguistics here, teaching a chimp to use hand signs is not the same as using language itself. just like you can teach a dog to understand spoken commands, they still aren't able to communicate via human language.
 

In canonical D&D, elves and humans can have offspring. And orcs and humans can as well. What is the biological reason, therefore, that elves and orcs cannot?
The term for this is a ring species

What's more, their offspring are fertile. So, if we are using ideas from real world biology, elves and orcs and humans cannot be different species.

If we're using ideas from real-world biology than they CAN'T be the same species because they don't share a phylogenic tree

(unless POSSIBLY (but not necessarily) if we argue them to be a larval form of the afterlife outsiders, and, furthermore, posit reincarnation if an outsider is slain. In which case EVERYTHING - with the exception of modrons, demodands, and yugoloths - would be the same species.)
 

eugenemarshall

Game designer/editor, Arcanist Press & Sigil Ent.
If we're using ideas from real-world biology than they CAN'T be the same species because they don't share a phylogenic tree
On what page of what official book can I find the phylogenic trees for the fantasy races? 'Cause that would be awesome. :p

Actually, I'd rather not use ideas from real-world biology, as I said above. I don't find that kind of simulationism to be fun, but to each their own.
 

Celebrim

Legend
okay guy who studied linguistics here, teaching a chimp to use hand signs is not the same as using language itself. just like you can teach a dog to understand spoken commands, they still aren't able to communicate via human language.

Is this because of intelligence limitations though, or simply physical limitations?

The reason you can't teach a dog to perform hand signs is probably not because the dog is too unintelligent to grasp the concept. The reason is probably because the dog lacks not only manipulative digits, but a large enough portion of their brain devoted to manipulating its paws to have that degree of dexterity.

You can however teach a dog to signal you by performing things it can do. Heck, my grandfather taught his dogs to smile, something that goes hugely against their natural emotion sharing context since among wild dogs, smiling indicates displeasure and not pleasure.

Likewise, the reason a chimp can't speak is likely more to do with the lack of ability to control it's voice box to a sufficient degree to produce the sounds necessary for language, as well a likely a lack of the physical tools in the mouth and throat to produce those sounds.

It's not at all clear to what extent chimps aren't using language itself. It's highly likely that they have natural limits to their speech forming intelligence, but I feel reasonable satisfied that they are using language with some degree of intentionality out of a desire to communicate simple ideas. Now, don't get me wrong, I think the limits of their speech forming intelligence are pretty darn harsh, as they don't ever seem to grasp the ability to ask questions in the way that, for example, Helen Keller eventually grasped in a profound manner when repeatedly signed to. Some instincts or processes necessary for high degrees of speech intelligence may be entirely missing. But I do think some rudimentary speech forming intelligence is present.
 

okay guy who studied linguistics here, teaching a chimp to use hand signs is not the same as using language itself. just like you can teach a dog to understand spoken commands, they still aren't able to communicate via human language.

You can teach the chimp to make hand signs intelligibly, not just react to them or use them unintelligibly
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
okay guy who studied linguistics here, teaching a chimp to use hand signs is not the same as using language itself. just like you can teach a dog to understand spoken commands, they still aren't able to communicate via human language.

With respect - Koko could make herself quite understood and communicate her desires. There's not a whole lot of debate over her using language.


TO give an example:

"Famously Koko felt quite sad in 1984 when her adopted kitten Ball was hit by a car and died. How do we know? Here is nonhuman primate grief mediated through language: In historical footage in the film, Patterson is seen asking Koko, "What happened to Ball?" In reply, Koko utters these signs in sequence: cat, cry, have-sorry, Koko-love. And then, after a pause, two more signs: unattention, visit me."

This is in no way making hand signs to get behavior from humans. This was expression.
 
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Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
With respect - Koko could make herself quite understood and communicate her desires. There's not a whole lot of debate over her using language.

there is a lot of skepticism in the linguistics community over Koko and her ability to use sign language. in fact Koko was the example used when they taught us about what isn't actually language. unfortunately there's no debate 'cause 1) the public in general doesn't actually takes linguistics seriously and 2) the fairy tale story of a animal closely related to human learning human language is more publicly acceptable than some species of animals are just better at perceiving and imitating human communication.

language log goes into this multiple times Language Log » The (Non-) Evolution of language
 


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