How to address racism in a fantasy setting without it dragging down the game?

[Panda-s1]

Not really. But that's okay! It's not just my "analogy," but a pretty-well known use of a developed theory from AI and philosophy that's been applied before to this.

See, e.g.,

The chimpanzee and the Chinese room (Chapter 9) - Aping Language

Aping Language - October 1992

www.cambridge.org

I was trying to help you out, but you carry on. We can get back to racism in a fantasy setting.

no, you are. the argument was "do chimps use human language?" and then you come in with "WHAT IS UNDERSTANDING?!?" I've known about the Chinese room for years, my point is it's not really a language thing because you can substitute Chinese with a number of different things.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Michael Silverbane]

"no, you are"

So, I was going to respond to this also, before I realised what was meant was, "No, you are (making things more complicated than necessary)." and not, "No, you are (the thing that you said I was)."

Okay, I got this (hold my beer).

 

[lowkey13]

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[Beleriphon]

Kanzi, a bonobo, seems to have learned to read the lexigrams used with other bonobos without being trained specifically to do so. So he effectively taught himself to read.

One of the experiments was Kanzi being separated in a different room, provided yogurt and them using vocalizations to get his sister to point a the yogurt symbol. In effect the vocalization seemed to have specific meaning.

He also learned some ASL from watching videos of Koko. It was never an intentionally taught skill, but it was something he learned. I will freely admit that Kanzi seems to be very much an outlier in terms of apes and language, but he does demonstrate that they are capable of using and learning language.

 

[Panda-s1]

Kanzi, a bonobo, seems to have learned to read the lexigrams used with other bonobos without being trained specifically to do so. So he effectively taught himself to read.

One of the experiments was Kanzi being separated in a different room, provided yogurt and them using vocalizations to get his sister to point a the yogurt symbol. In effect the vocalization seemed to have specific meaning.

He also learned some ASL from watching videos of Koko. It was never an intentionally taught skill, but it was something he learned. I will freely admit that Kanzi seems to be very much an outlier in terms of apes and language, but he does demonstrate that they are capable of using and learning language.

no, he demonstrates that primates are good at using parts of human language to get things they need. given these studies are about their use of human language, is no else uncomfortable with just how much they rely on the interpretation of researchers to show their ability with language?

as an aside these primates aren't exactly doing well these days, as this article points out: The Strange World of Koko, Kanzi, and the Decline of Ape Language Research

 

[Beleriphon]

no, he demonstrates that primates are good at using parts of human language to get things they need. given these studies are about their use of human language, is no else uncomfortable with just how much they rely on the interpretation of researchers to show their ability with language?

as an aside these primates aren't exactly doing well these days, as this article points out: The Strange World of Koko, Kanzi, and the Decline of Ape Language Research

There are going to be issues with studies and language when we involve a species that can't communicate with us using the same language. I think the better non-humans to explore as with language would be cetaceans personally, specifically dolphins. But that has a whole bunch of other issues as well.

From what I've seen with cetacean studies they really do understand what we're saying. And generally have a higher level of intelligence compared to apes. I suspect brain mass to both mass is part of it. One example I've seen discussed you talk about one in a negative way and they respond to the person talking about them, typically by splashing them. It doesn't have to be a trainer, the dolphins understand that certain sounds specifically refer to them as an individual and learn to identify that sound. By all accounts dolphins produce thousands of different and discrete sounds that seem to have syntax.

 

[Panda-s1]

There are going to be issues with studies and language when we involve a species that can't communicate with us using the same language. I think the better non-humans to explore as with language would be cetaceans personally, specifically dolphins. But that has a whole bunch of other issues as well.

From what I've seen with cetacean studies they really do understand what we're saying. And generally have a higher level of intelligence compared to apes. I suspect brain mass to both mass is part of it. One example I've seen discussed you talk about one in a negative way and they respond to the person talking about them, typically by splashing them. It doesn't have to be a trainer, the dolphins understand that certain sounds specifically refer to them as an individual and learn to identify that sound. By all accounts dolphins produce thousands of different and discrete sounds that seem to have syntax.

okay then dolphins know dolphin language, that doesn't mean they know human language. the issue here whether or not we've just conditioned said animals to use certain behaviors or if they're actually capable of using language in the same way a human does, and a lot of skepticism goes towards the former. like it should be kind of informative how much the public's perception of Koko has come from appeals to emotion made by her caregivers.

 

[Beleriphon]

okay then dolphins know dolphin language, that doesn't mean they know human language. the issue here whether or not we've just conditioned said animals to use certain behaviors or if they're actually capable of using language in the same way a human does, and a lot of skepticism goes towards the former. like it should be kind of informative how much the public's perception of Koko has come from appeals to emotion made by her caregivers.

I think its fair to suggest that if dolphins know dolphin language (and learn other dolphin dialects, which seems to exist as well) they can learn human language. The testing process isn't that different from getting a young child to perform a task in exchange for a reward. It helps if you've established a series of actions and then test if they can combine those actions in a novel way, or introduce objects that have similar qualities that they haven't seen combined before.

For example balls, red things, but no red balls. Dolphins are particular good at identifying objects, and colours in combination. Or performing actions with objects they haven't been asked to do before. This would indicate they know what the action is and what the object is separately and they have to combine them.

 

[Panda-s1]

For example balls, red things, but no red balls. Dolphins are particular good at identifying objects, and colours in combination. Or performing actions with objects they haven't been asked to do before. This would indicate they know what the action is and what the object is separately and they have to combine them.

this is just an example of how they're good at cognition. here's a better test: do that test, then try and ask them to describe the test without any objects.