How to beat the "20 always succeeds" rule
- Thread starter Alzrius
- Start date
Dross
Explorer
Only one thing comes to my mind, but I'm unable to remember what it was.
I've heard somewhere on these boards of a spell/feat/SU that makes a foe roll two dice and use the lesser, although not quite what you want.
But "a 20 always succeeds" (except for skill rolls) is a very "core" rule, so are you sure it was not a house rule of some type?
I've heard somewhere on these boards of a spell/feat/SU that makes a foe roll two dice and use the lesser, although not quite what you want.
But "a 20 always succeeds" (except for skill rolls) is a very "core" rule, so are you sure it was not a house rule of some type?
Jack Simth
First Post
Ah... kinda defeats the purpose of a game of dice if it's hopeless. If you're the DM, just fiat it in. If you're not the DM, why bother, unless you're going up against a high-rank deity or something? Under normal circumstances, it's 5%. If you have a DM that's rolling an absurd number of nat-20's behind the screen to keep opponents alive past your action, then there's a problem, but it's not the nat-20 clause.
Wyvernhand
First Post
Unluck is a terrible spell. It costs an action and is subject to a save. It would be decent if it didn't have one or the other, but as it stands, its bad. You might as well just cast the kill spell you are aiming for twice.
If you are a Fatespinner, you can force a foe to reroll twice per day, or use it to reroll your own saves twice per day, or any combination in between.
If you are a Fatespinner, you can force a foe to reroll twice per day, or use it to reroll your own saves twice per day, or any combination in between.
This is kinda moving into the region of house rules, but that may be where you want to head in any case.
For skill checks ONLY, my group uses a natural 20 = 30 + skill to differentiate it from Take 20. Conversely, a natural 1 = skill - 9. Thus, a truly skilled lockpicker may still be able to pick a lock even if they sneeze when inserting the bobby pin... We have had some odd situations (spotting an invisible rogue when he rolled a 1 for Hide vs a 20 for Spot).
Feat-wise and away from house rules there's not really much you can do. Some class abilities force an opponent to re-roll at your discretion, but that's really all I can think of.
For skill checks ONLY, my group uses a natural 20 = 30 + skill to differentiate it from Take 20. Conversely, a natural 1 = skill - 9. Thus, a truly skilled lockpicker may still be able to pick a lock even if they sneeze when inserting the bobby pin... We have had some odd situations (spotting an invisible rogue when he rolled a 1 for Hide vs a 20 for Spot).
Feat-wise and away from house rules there's not really much you can do. Some class abilities force an opponent to re-roll at your discretion, but that's really all I can think of.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I disagree. A level 3 will save or lose with good range that is NOT mind affecting nor limited in the types of creatures it can affect is quite, quite awesome. Add in the nice synergy from C.Champion to trade your crappy level 5 wizard bonus feat to spont. cast divination spells whenever you please, and it becomes a very handy all-purpose "guess I didn't need X spell today afterall" trade-in.
DumbPaladin
First Post
Unluck can shut down some monsters, since the DM must roll twice for each attack. It's saved my group's butt before. It also works better if you have a way to raise the DC. Personally, I use Spell Rehearsal to up the DC each time I cast it. As pointed out, since the spell isn't mind-affecting, there are very few things "mmune" to the unluck effect.
Wyvernhand
First Post
Contrast with Slow, a CORE 3rd level transmutation.
Action:
Unluck - Standard
Slow - Standard
Advantage? Neither
Save:
Unluck - Will negates, Divination school
Slow - Will negates, Transmutation school
Since a wizard is more likely to have Spell Focus: Transmutation than Spell Focus Divination (since there are only like, 6 Divinations with saves, vs hundreds of Transmuations with saves), Slow will often be slightly higher.
Advantage? Slow
Targets:
Unluck - Single
Slow - 1/CL within 30' of each other
Advantage? Slow
Range:
Unluck - Close
Slow - Close
Advantage? Neither
Duration:
Unluck - Rounds/level
Slow - Rounds/level
Advantage? Neither
Effect:
Unluck - subject rolls attacks and saves twice. If the subject hits on a 2+ already, thats only a slight increase in effect. If you were targetting a save with a save vs die spell, then the subject of Unluck would have already failed the first save if you had cast the other spell first, and could STILL save twice even with Unluck up. Doesn't really affect casters using non-attack roll spells.
Slow - subject is denied full attacks. Effective at low levels vs multiattackers like animals or TWFing rogues, effective at high levels vs anything with iteratives. Again, doesn't really affect casters.
Advantage? Slow
So really, Unluck is completely pointless as a debuff, and completely pointless as a set-up for another kill spell. If you manage to land the Unluck, you probably would have landed the kill spell. Even if you land the Unluck, you are STILL not garunteed to land the kill spell. Really, you'd be best off casting Slow twice in succession. If the first Slow works, the target is affected and the 2nd isn't needed. If the first fails, the second has a chance to work. Contrast with Unluck; if the Unluck works, you still have to cast the Slow because Unluck is a rather weak debuff. If the Unluck fails, you are in exactly the same position you'd be in if the first slow had failed.
Trust me, Unluck is a TERRIBLE spell. It should either be a swift action spell (and thus take almost no action, similar to Assay Spell Resistance) or not allow a save (similar to Curse of Impending Blades). While it has both of those features, it is catagorically WORSE than Unluck in nearly every catagory. Period.
Action:
Unluck - Standard
Slow - Standard
Advantage? Neither
Save:
Unluck - Will negates, Divination school
Slow - Will negates, Transmutation school
Since a wizard is more likely to have Spell Focus: Transmutation than Spell Focus Divination (since there are only like, 6 Divinations with saves, vs hundreds of Transmuations with saves), Slow will often be slightly higher.
Advantage? Slow
Targets:
Unluck - Single
Slow - 1/CL within 30' of each other
Advantage? Slow
Range:
Unluck - Close
Slow - Close
Advantage? Neither
Duration:
Unluck - Rounds/level
Slow - Rounds/level
Advantage? Neither
Effect:
Unluck - subject rolls attacks and saves twice. If the subject hits on a 2+ already, thats only a slight increase in effect. If you were targetting a save with a save vs die spell, then the subject of Unluck would have already failed the first save if you had cast the other spell first, and could STILL save twice even with Unluck up. Doesn't really affect casters using non-attack roll spells.
Slow - subject is denied full attacks. Effective at low levels vs multiattackers like animals or TWFing rogues, effective at high levels vs anything with iteratives. Again, doesn't really affect casters.
Advantage? Slow
So really, Unluck is completely pointless as a debuff, and completely pointless as a set-up for another kill spell. If you manage to land the Unluck, you probably would have landed the kill spell. Even if you land the Unluck, you are STILL not garunteed to land the kill spell. Really, you'd be best off casting Slow twice in succession. If the first Slow works, the target is affected and the 2nd isn't needed. If the first fails, the second has a chance to work. Contrast with Unluck; if the Unluck works, you still have to cast the Slow because Unluck is a rather weak debuff. If the Unluck fails, you are in exactly the same position you'd be in if the first slow had failed.
Trust me, Unluck is a TERRIBLE spell. It should either be a swift action spell (and thus take almost no action, similar to Assay Spell Resistance) or not allow a save (similar to Curse of Impending Blades). While it has both of those features, it is catagorically WORSE than Unluck in nearly every catagory. Period.
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