D&D 4E How to do a 4e Spellthief?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think SOMETHING could be done with theft. How about something along these lines:

The stealer has a class feature which allows stealing monster powers. He can only steal from monsters of a level equal or lower than his own level. This could also be a 'level opposed check' so maybe he CAN steal from a monster higher level than himself, but the chance of success goes down drastically. This could work like Cha vs Will with an added +/- equal to the level difference. Stealing an at-will might be at base, a recharge gets -1, an encounter gets -2, and a daily gets -5. This feature would be usable only twice per encounter say. It could also be a set of powers of his own that allow stealing of specific types of monster powers (at-will, etc).

Successfully stealing a power gives the stealer a certain number of TempHP. Then give him a number of powers which have a TempHP cost. Provide a feat which allows him to use an HS to gain TempHP (so he can use these powers at some cost to himself if he hasn't 'gotten a charge' yet).

There can be various additional powers/feats available that allow 'special' things like making a melee attack and gaining some TempHP, or gaining a damage type keyword from a stolen monster power.

This way he's got some unique abilities, their overall strength can be regulated, and he can buff them in minor ways by various means. There are also a few minor ways he could multi-class at higher levels if someone wants to do that, like gaining some of the MP fighter abilities that can give TempHP.

There are probably still some problems, but I suspect only playtesting it would allow them to be smoothed out. The main point is it is HARD to steal a really good monster power, but possible, and weaker powers can be stolen without TOO much trouble, but monsters get those back pretty quick. The way that would work should be pretty straightforward. The monster regains an at-will after the stealer's next turn, an encounter power is just gone, a recharge power can recharge normally, and a daily is just lost.

 

[Wraith Form]

One idea may be to instead of directly "stealing" a ability or power, you could instead hamper an enemy's recharge capability or resistance to instead gain charges (which could be a class power) that could be used to amplify your powers. This would mean that the spellthief could be a watered down rogue/wizard who can excel at those powers if he hampers foes to boost his abilities.

For example, lets say you have an at-will as a minor action against an enemy. If you hit you deal no damage but instead the enemy cannot use an encounter power until your next turn -or- cannot recharge a power until your next turn, and you can gain some static charge. Then lets say you use one of your at-wills that deal 1[W] + Dex damage and you expel a [charge] in order to deal an extra 1d6 damage for the attack.

Thoughts?

I'm liking this, and had a similar thought. You described it better than I would have.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

I think SOMETHING could be done with theft. How about something along these lines:

The stealer has a class feature which allows stealing monster powers. He can only steal from monsters of a level equal or lower than his own level. This could also be a 'level opposed check' so maybe he CAN steal from a monster higher level than himself, but the chance of success goes down drastically. This could work like Cha vs Will with an added +/- equal to the level difference. Stealing an at-will might be at base, a recharge gets -1, an encounter gets -2, and a daily gets -5. This feature would be usable only twice per encounter say. It could also be a set of powers of his own that allow stealing of specific types of monster powers (at-will, etc).

Successfully stealing a power gives the stealer a certain number of TempHP. Then give him a number of powers which have a TempHP cost. Provide a feat which allows him to use an HS to gain TempHP (so he can use these powers at some cost to himself if he hasn't 'gotten a charge' yet).

There can be various additional powers/feats available that allow 'special' things like making a melee attack and gaining some TempHP, or gaining a damage type keyword from a stolen monster power.

This way he's got some unique abilities, their overall strength can be regulated, and he can buff them in minor ways by various means. There are also a few minor ways he could multi-class at higher levels if someone wants to do that, like gaining some of the MP fighter abilities that can give TempHP.

There are probably still some problems, but I suspect only playtesting it would allow them to be smoothed out. The main point is it is HARD to steal a really good monster power, but possible, and weaker powers can be stolen without TOO much trouble, but monsters get those back pretty quick. The way that would work should be pretty straightforward. The monster regains an at-will after the stealer's next turn, an encounter power is just gone, a recharge power can recharge normally, and a daily is just lost.

Overall I think this is a good approach. I had mentioned some sort of "charges" for the class but using an existing method such as THP or even just HS outright might be a good idea. We should keep this brainstorm going and start piecing things together, get some collaborative creation going.

For Example:

Power Theft
At-Will: Arcane, Theft (new keyword we could use?)
Minor Action
Melee Touch
Target: One creature you have knowledge against
Attack: Charisma vs. Will (see below)
Hit: The target loses the use of one power until your next turn and you gain temporary hit points based on the power.
*At-Will: You gain your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Recharge: You have a -1 to the attack and you gain 1 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Encounter: You have a -2 to attack and you gain 2 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Daily: You have a -5 to the attack and you gain 5 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
Special: If the target's level is at least 3 levels higher than yours, increase the penalty (if any) to the attack equal to the target's level.


This is just a quick write-up so any thoughts to clean it up would be nice.

 

[Garthanos]

Overall I think this is a good approach. I had mentioned some sort of "charges" for the class but using an existing method such as THP or even just HS outright might be a good idea. We should keep this brainstorm going and start piecing things together, get some collaborative creation going.

For Example:

Power Theft
At-Will: Arcane, Theft (new keyword we could use?)
Minor Action
Melee Touch
Target: One creature you have knowledge against
Attack: Charisma vs. Will (see below)
Hit: The target loses the use of one power until your next turn and you gain temporary hit points based on the power.
*At-Will: You gain your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Recharge: You have a -1 to the attack and you gain 1 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Encounter: You have a -2 to attack and you gain 2 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
*Daily: You have a -5 to the attack and you gain 5 + your Charisma modifier temporary hit points.
Special: If the target's level is at least 3 levels higher than yours, increase the penalty (if any) to the attack equal to the target's level.


This is just a quick write-up so any thoughts to clean it up would be nice.

How about some thoughts grabbed between my mind being wierded out over it...
THP do represent an altered mind state - so now your mind thief (who I now want to give these stealing attacks psychic damage) gets hit after stealing and the stuff he has been soaking(in thp) slips from his mind or he out right uses them ... on buffs with the same flavors as what he stole

-->this latter bit so if he stole something martial its atleast a martial thing?
I kind of like the mirror it back next turn so that which is stolen obviously relates otherwise you are just absorbing the attacks energy.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

How about some thoughts grabbed between my mind being wierded out over it...
THP do represent an altered mind state - so now your mind thief (who I now want to give these stealing attacks psychic damage) gets hit after stealing and the stuff he has been soaking(in thp) slips from his mind or he out right uses them ... on buffs with the same flavors as what he stole

-->this latter bit so if he stole something martial its atleast a martial thing?
I kind of like the mirror it back next turn so that which is stolen obviously relates otherwise you are just absorbing the attacks energy.

The issue that keeps coming up is that monsters don't have a sort of "energy source" such as martial or arcane. So you would need to keep the energy concept away from those ideas so that you aren't stuck define what monsters are based off what power.

 

[Mentat55]

I think Omnifarious Grey's idea of interfering with a creature's recharge and/or encounter powers and/or resistances, plus gaining a 'charge' to deal additional damage, would fit the Spellthief well, and slot the class into the striker role, with a bit of controller (disrupting the enemy) mixed in.

If you want to mimic the Spellthief's ability to steal certain effects, I could see encounter or daily powers that target a monster with specific abilities, such as regeneration, insubstantial, abilities with certain keywords, and temporarily gain a similar ability (the ability would not be based on the monster's, per se, but instead on a more generic one described in the power).

For example:

Regenerating Strike Spellthief Attack Level 9
Daily * Arcane, Healing, Weapon
Standard action Melee weapon
Target: One creature with the regeneration ability
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Effect: The target does not regenerate (save ends). In addition, you gain regeneration 5 until the end of the encounter.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

I think Omnifarious Grey's idea of interfering with a creature's recharge and/or encounter powers and/or resistances, plus gaining a 'charge' to deal additional damage, would fit the Spellthief well, and slot the class into the striker role, with a bit of controller (disrupting the enemy) mixed in.

If you want to mimic the Spellthief's ability to steal certain effects, I could see encounter or daily powers that target a monster with specific abilities, such as regeneration, insubstantial, abilities with certain keywords, and temporarily gain a similar ability (the ability would not be based on the monster's, per se, but instead on a more generic one described in the power).

For example:

Regenerating Strike Spellthief Attack Level 9
Daily * Arcane, Healing, Weapon
Standard action Melee weapon
Target: One creature with the regeneration ability
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Effect: The target does not regenerate (save ends). In addition, you gain regeneration 5 until the end of the encounter.

This is a good idea. The daily powers of the class should involve shutting dwn certain opponents to gain benefits. This is condition, but the rewards should then be good. The encounters could revolve around the idea of focusing on either more control or possible defender/leader for a secondary. I think the main concept idea is going to be coming up with the class feature to fuel this all. Is it going to be temporary hit point based of healing surge based, or perhaps some new arbitrary counter?

 

[Mentat55]

Well, they introduced arbitrary counters for the Lifestealer PP and the dark pact warlock, so I don't think we necessarily need to use healing surges or temporary hit points for that. But they are possible as well.

I was also thinking it might be possible to make the big daily powers more generic, so they target a specific keyword, and then the spellthief gains an ability/effect that is similar to said keyword. So for the above example, the spellthief can target a creature with regeneration or a power with the Healing keyword. The monster loses that ability (save ends), and the spellthief gains regeneration. That way, it might be less conditional -- unless the spellthief has more daily or encounter powers than other classes, it would be nice if their daily powers could be used in most situations. But maybe even this isn't flexible enough...

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Well, they introduced arbitrary counters for the Lifestealer PP and the dark pact warlock, so I don't think we necessarily need to use healing surges or temporary hit points for that. But they are possible as well.

I was also thinking it might be possible to make the big daily powers more generic, so they target a specific keyword, and then the spellthief gains an ability/effect that is similar to said keyword. So for the above example, the spellthief can target a creature with regeneration or a power with the Healing keyword. The monster loses that ability (save ends), and the spellthief gains regeneration. That way, it might be less conditional -- unless the spellthief has more daily or encounter powers than other classes, it would be nice if their daily powers could be used in most situations. But maybe even this isn't flexible enough...

The idea of daily powers being very flexible and used in numerous situations is probably the better way to go with it. The encounters should possibly be more versatile and possibly weaker on the whole, except if you use class features to boost them.

I think the big issue still stands on how we can envision the class feature to make this class work.

 

[Wik]

I think Omnifarious Grey's idea of interfering with a creature's recharge and/or encounter powers and/or resistances, plus gaining a 'charge' to deal additional damage, would fit the Spellthief well, and slot the class into the striker role, with a bit of controller (disrupting the enemy) mixed in.

If you want to mimic the Spellthief's ability to steal certain effects, I could see encounter or daily powers that target a monster with specific abilities, such as regeneration, insubstantial, abilities with certain keywords, and temporarily gain a similar ability (the ability would not be based on the monster's, per se, but instead on a more generic one described in the power).

For example:

Regenerating Strike Spellthief Attack Level 9
Daily * Arcane, Healing, Weapon
Standard action Melee weapon
Target: One creature with the regeneration ability
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Effect: The target does not regenerate (save ends). In addition, you gain regeneration 5 until the end of the encounter.

I like this, and I think this would be an ideal place to focus effort! It really got me thinking, too. The only problem with this approach is that it goes back to the 3e ranger's problem (and the 3e spellthief's problem, come to think of it): it is entirely dependant on GM choice. If the GM never throws a creature with regen at you, this power is useless.

I think a fix for this would be to allow the power to have a bonus if it hits a creature with regeneration, but to still have a normal game effect (that is somewhat weaker) if it hits a "normal" creature.

And the idea of stealing recharge uses to power your own attacks (like a Dark Pact warlock) is a nice one. Stealing encounters, though, is too strong... but suppressing encounter powers works fine by me.

And I think the class should still have daily powers that let you steal encounter powers of monsters of your level or lower, provided they are not elite or solo monsters. You are, after all, blowing a daily for an encounter.

Personally, I don't like stealing powers to boost temp HP, but I can see the validity of the build... and, after all, there should be multiple paths the spellthief player can choose to follow.