How to do a "low" economy game?

[der_kluge]

Reddist, don't know if you want me in your thread or not, but I can give you my two cents on the matter...

(I'm playing in said game this weekend).

For my character, I took starting gold average (75 for a sorcerer), and cut it in half. You'd be surprised what you can buy with 35 gold coins, when you don't have to worry about weapons or armor. I'm actually considering starting with no weapon, though a pitchfork is sounding more and more cool.

I have 16 gold left on my sheet, and I'm thinking of just arbitrarily reducing it to maybe 1 or 2 gold, and some sp and cp. Most of her gear is crappy, rusted stuff that she's had for a very long time. It basically has no resale value of any kind. She is a peasant, and I've built her as a peasant, and to start with 75gp would just kill the versimilitude for me. I did give her a ring that was her mother's, that I placed a gp value of 30gp on, but she'll never sell it, since it has personal meaning for her. So, I guess in a way I kind of worked my way up (arbitrarily) to around 75gp.

I think Daniel's character is actually starting with 0 money. Works into his history, I think, though I'm sketchy on his details, obviously.

FWIW, I think the Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe has a lot of good info on costs, and economy, etc. Looks like it's even on special at $5, I may finally pick it up myself.

When we worked on Artificer's Handbook, we quickly realized the absurdities of the cost structures of magic items. It's why I've always been in favor of questing for components, or purchasing select components for magic item construction versus paying some flat, arbitrary cost. I don't know if anyone in our game is interested in item creation feats (I'm not), but I definitely think we should go with the models in the AH, and use the 5gp modifer to reduce the costs for certain components. I also really like AH's masterwork rules since they scale a lot better. In game terms, a +1 sword is equivalent to a house. Maybe that makes sense, but a high level character with +5 whatevers is the economic equivalent of Bill Gates walking around wearing his fortune in a backpack. It's just not very realistic.

I think when you consider your average village, most money that changes hands would come in the form of cp and sp, and when someone plunks down a gp on a table, it'd be the equivalent of me walking into a McDonald's and asking for change for a $100 bill. It's not unreasonable, just not very common.

I like the idea of gifted items as well, and makes more sense to me. If I were a fighter, for example, I could have given him "dad's chainmail he wore during the war", and given it an arbitrary -1 penalty because it's a bit rusted, and has some broken links in it. Most peasants, when they make that transition towards a 1st level fighter, just aren't going to have the kinds of money they need to plunk down on a set of brand new armor, or a brand new sword.

Pity the PHB doesn't list costs for "used" equipment.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Another thing you really need to think about when aiming for a "low-economy" game is what you're going to do about wizards.

You can't just leave them as written, because by the RAW they're a frightfully expensive character class. Any time you drop the recommended treasure haul or change all the gold pieces in the world to silver, it's probably a good idea to make a similar adjustment in how much it costs a wizard to copy a spell into a spellbook or to scribe a scroll; otherwise, you might as well just ban wizards from the game entirely and make all arcane casters either bards or sorcerors, since the much-vaunted versatility of wizards really depends on them being able to afford to actually have a well-stocked spell repertoire.


Sometimes the wizard's expenses seem to be there for the sole purpose of siphoning away the ubiquitous treasure-bloat of higher levels (seriously, 100gp PER PAGE to write in a spellbook, over and above the price of whatever spell you're paying another wizard to teach you?), so it's not like it's a terrible thing to adjust that while you're already adjusting the rest of the economy. Likewise, banning wizards isn't a bad solution, either; lord knows it's easier to keep track of and run bards and sorcerors anyway. Just do something, or be prepared to try and explain why anyone would want to be a wizard when no one can actually afford to be one.

--
no other character class has to pay so much just to do its core schticks
ryan

 

[molonel]

I know how to build NPCs that are going to be less powerful than my PCs, and I know how to build encounters that are fair to my PCs who may have fewer resources than "standard PHB" PCs. Whats effects the PCs will effect the rest of the world as well.

Well, then you're better equipped than a lot of folks who consider the same exercise.

the point is I *want* them to struggle, I *want* them to worry about whether or not they should purchase a piece of equipment or save until they can get something bigger and better. I *want* them to get all giddy with the thoughts of a shopping spree when they uncover a sack of small gold bars. I *DON'T* want them to loot a critter or NPC or ruin, find a metric ton of gold pieces, and shrug it off as another day's work. I can control what they find, but what they spend is up to them. I just want them to worry about it

Let me clarify something: I have no vested interest in seeing you play any other way. I'm just giving you my perspective. The last three major campaigns I've played in were what I'd call "throttled" campaigns: lower treasure, lower magic if not low magic (one was virtually no magic). Right now, I'm on a high-magic, high fantasy kick. I'm tired of crawling through the mud, or making players crawl through the mud, and shouting, "Yippee! A +1 dagger with 3 pages of backstory!" and fondling it like Gollum with the One Ring. I understand the draw to such campaigns, just as I understand the draw to low magic campaigns - and your proposed campaign will, with the lowering of resources, probably qualify as a low magic campaign as well.

If your group likes it, well, kickass. Enjoy yourself. I'm just coming out of a long walk through the valley of low magic and low treasure. Right now, I'm headed in exactly the opposite direction.

 

[FireLance]

the point is I *want* them to struggle, I *want* them to worry about whether or not they should purchase a piece of equipment or save until they can get something bigger and better. I *want* them to get all giddy with the thoughts of a shopping spree when they uncover a sack of small gold bars. I *DON'T* want them to loot a critter or NPC or ruin, find a metric ton of gold pieces, and shrug it off as another day's work.

I can control what they find, but what they spend is up to them.

I just want them to worry about it

-Reddist

Well, I do hope your players are aware that this is what they're in for and if not, I hope they take it well.

There is the tendency for low-resource games to devolve into bookkeeping exercises where every character keeps track of the last copper piece and arrow that he owns. I know that some players avoid such games because they would rather be adventurers than accountants.

From my experience, such circumstances are more acceptable to players when they are struggling, low-level adventurers. Once past a certain point, however (this varies from player to player and from game to game), they want to worry about bigger things than whether they have enough silver to stay at an inn.

 

[molonel]

There is the tendency for low-resource games to devolve into bookkeeping exercises where every character keeps track of the last copper piece and arrow that he owns. I know that some players avoid such games because they would rather be adventurers than accountants. From my experience, such circumstances are more acceptable to players when they are struggling, low-level adventurers. Once past a certain point, however (this varies from player to player and from game to game), they want to worry about bigger things than whether they have enough silver to stay at an inn.

Well said, and very true to my own experience, as well.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Have a look at Hong's imbued magic items rules.

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/

They allow the PCs to have appropriate 'magic item'
power for their level, without needing lots of loot.

Geoff.

 

[Baron Opal]

Don't forget there can be other rewards than just coin. The ogre they just fought may have had large shields strapped to its chest and back for armor. One treasure site I had was at the mouth of a cave. A stream had its source deep within the cave and along the banks there was black sand. After they cleaned out the cave, they returned and bartered with the local smith with some of the loot they had. During their negotiations, one of the characters mentioned the unusual sand of the cave. Turns out that it was a special, high-grade iron ore. In return for knowledge of where the sand was and help in harvesting it, the smith made them some masterwork weapons.

Rather than paying people in coin, those who hire adventurers for troubleshooting might have goods to give them.

Baron Opal

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It seems to me like you're asking for two different and mutually incompatible things:

1. You want advice on running a low-economy game where PCs scrape and struggle to find enough money to pay for a night at the inn and some watered down beer.

2. You want advice on running a low-economy game where the PCs will have something like the assumed amount of equipment per level and will be able to handle level appropriate challenges.

Option #1 precludes option #2. You can run a lower-economy game. However, without modifications to the system, it will nerf all of the non-magic using classes tremendously. When nobody can afford fullplate, the fighter/wizard who casts mage armor and alter self (troglodyte) and the fighter/cleric who casts shield of faith on himself while wearing a breastplate and shield are the only characters who can get a decent AC--maybe the rogue can too if it's a very high stat game. So, multiclassing with spellcasting classes is very much encouraged. Similarly, among the fighting classes, barbarians outshine everyone else and two-handed weapons are dramatically favored over one-handed weapons. Why? Because when all you've got for defense is a heavy shield and scale mail and your foes have +9 to hit (troll, CR 5) or +8 to hit (Human War 4 with weapon focus, CR 3), you have to resign to getting hit on at least every other attack. At that point, the only defense you can have is a good offense. A Barbarian with a two handed weapon does offense better than other classes. As you will soon discover running that kind of game, jumping out of barbarian and into fighter for at least four levels lets you do offense even better. D&D pretty heavily favors two-handed power attacking types anyway, in a low-treasure game, they're the only viable non-magical fighter class.

Similarly, the low-economy, scraping to survive system heavily favors sorcerors over wizards. With no money to scribe spells into their spellbook, wizards are just sorcerors who get their high level spells one level sooner and who have slightly more spells known and fewer spells per day. . . and who don't cast spontaneously.

And, it probably favors druids most of all, since they are generally less reliant upon equipment than other spellcasters up until mid-levels.

So, if you want to do #1 and you want a balanced party, you probably need to look at some non-D&D rules systems. Wheel of Time might work for you. The Midnight setting reportedly has some options that enable it to work as a low treasure setting.

Option #2 is somewhat easier--ancestral relics, imbued magic items, weapons and equipment that progress with their wielders or simply slowing xp and treasure aquisition by the same rate work fine. The Book of Exalted Deeds Vow of Poverty feat would probably work pretty well too. However, it's unlikely that a character with a +1 flaming ancestral longsword and armor that advances with him is going to be scraping to get enough coppers to pay for a beer at the inn and searching for a shopping cart without a broken wheel to carry his stash around in. Nor is a character who takes the vow of poverty feat going to be clawing after money like a rat in a gutter. Those options seem much more appropriate for a more heroic low-treasure game.

 

[reddist]

Option #2 is somewhat easier--ancestral relics, imbued magic items, weapons and equipment that progress with their wielders or simply slowing xp and treasure aquisition by the same rate work fine.

Didn't I say that?

I think I've got something worked out. I'm gonna try a coin system similar to what Matafuego described, not quite so many exchanges though, and some non-monetary gifts/rewards along the way. This is a good group of guys I'm playing with though, and if it's not working we can make adjustments as we see fit.

They should only struggle through the first couple of acts... by then they'll have reached a moderate level of disposable income. Maybe by 4th or 5th evel they can't buy +5 vorpal weapons or spheres of annihilation, but they can stay at a good 4-star inn.

-Reddist

 

[Whisper72]

Heh.... I am always amazed at all the ppl screaming and yelling about 'needing' this and that as a PC, otherwise it's not fair... blah blah blah... as long as the DM is about a balanced game, and it sounds like this one is, then it should be glaringly obvious to all that as the power of the PC's is lowered, the whole CR system goes out of the window. Since the CR system is clunky (especially if multiple / mixed monsters are encountered), it is no big loss to just chuck it.

So... to come back to the original question: how to do a low economy game, some points and thoughts on the matter:

- using a silver standard is fine, the main issue is to dole out less monetary treasure

When thinking of 'realistic' money, and wealth of 'commoners' versus 'nobles' and the PC's, remember some things:
- in a medieval world, using current currency standards, the average bloke in the street did not earn an average of 15,000 USD as you may be used to in the States, but the commoners earned more like USD 250 like in many third world countries. Similarly, nobles earned boatloads of money compared to commoners, compared to the various corrupt leaders of most third world nations scooping up millions if not billions of USD worth of cash.
So keep in mind that a commoner not being able to afford a decent meal in a first class inn is not per se a strange thing. The disparaties are a lot bigger then we are used to in western countries of today.
- most trade was not handled using cash anyhoo, and trade items and services are a fair exchange for goods and other services
- houses etc. were not very commonly sold / bought. Most farming villages have houses built by the people who live in them, with the various villagers helping eachother. Thus, it is difficult to hang a real 'price' on a house, and even when ppl have barely two coins to rub together, they could well live in a big / decent house if this was somehow inherited, or 'paid' for with services i.s.o. coins

Some things I myself have done to lower the whole economy while still keeping the PC's as the heroic centerpieces of the adventures they play:

alter the whole magic item system:
- potions are alchemical, and can be relatively widely bought. since they have 'expiration dates' after which 'unforseen effects' may occur, they usually have to be bought, as those found in older treasure vaults are 'suspect'
- scrolls are rarely found, as they are not truly magical per se, and so need to brave the elements and time to survive
- on the other hand, mages only need special inks (which are expensive, but not ridiculously so) to scribe spells into their spellbooks, and can trade for new spells, or find them in dusty tomes. Wizards rarely have any real trouble getting a hold of enough spells, getting precisely the one they want may cause some sort of search or adventure though
- +X weapons are considered 'worked'. They are fabricated using magical / alchemical processes and using arcane ingredients, but are not truly magical items per se in the sense as in standard DnD. +1 weapons are relatively easy to make, the higher the +, the more difficult and expensive the ingredients. The relative costs are scaled down muchly compared to the DMG
- wands etc. are 'holders' for magical energy. Storing this energy costs money and time, but is not ridiculously expensive. most wands are cheaper then in the standard DMG
- truly wondrous items are very rare and strange. This includes all the various 'buff' items. Most PC's in my campaig will be lucky to have one or two buff items by the time they reach 14th level or so...

Then there is the change to monsters
- first of all, most of the encounters are with humanoid monsters. All the aberrations etc are considered strange beings either from other planes, the underdark or summoned / created by mad mages in their laboratories.
- there where monsters have resistances to weapons, the plusses of the weapons count towards being magical weapons. Furthermore, since the higher + weapons are made of arcane materials in the first place, chances are that many have silver, adamantine etc used within them, thus also overcoming those resistances
- I do not use the whole CR system, and simply carefully balance the monsters I chose and their abilities (and more importantly, the intelligence with which I 'play' them) with the abilities of the PC's, keeping in mind the repertoire of spells, items and skills/powers they have. This does not mean that I never put an encounter that is easy or too difficult for them, but if I do, it is because that is the way I want it. It is IMHO healthy for PC's to learn to run every now and then, and just as important to waltz over the opposition every now and then, to flaunt your PC powers, which is part of the fun of playing DnD

- as for treasure. Most treasure will be carefully chosen to fit the logic of the encounter. When raiding a bandid roost that has been preying on caravan's, expect to find mostly trade goods, when sacking a treasury, expect to find lots of coins, but no magical items. Most magical items are found on the bodies of the slain, and rarely in ancient caches as hidden treasure or as part of burial relics, never 'random' in some sack of loot on a goblin's body...

When using such ideas and simple common sense, it is very easy to do a low magic / low economy (in the end, low economy practically equates low magic) campaign.

Just be consistent. If the scales are lowered on the end of the PC's, they should be lowered elsewhere as well in a logical fashion... In the end, the PC's should still remain the centrepiece / the heroes of the story. They need not, nay, they should not crawl through the mud, just have less gadgets to go around, and need to think more on what to use when, but the various NPC's they meet should be in the same quandary...