Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How to Fix Wizards and Vancian Casting
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 6042059" data-attributes="member: 58197"><p>This is the same way of thinking that concluded 3E warlocks were OMG BROKEN because they didn't have use limits on their invocations--even though those invocations were no more powerful than a ranger shooting a bow.</p><p></p><p>No matter how many spells you have in your arsenal, you still only get to cast one per round. Your power level scales strictly with the power of your spells; spells per day is not a factor, except insofar as it limits your top-level spell slots. But you never get more of those! A 5th-level hedge wizard and a 17th-level archmage both have the same number of top-level spell slots. Sure, the hedge wizard's best blasting spell is <em>fireball</em> and the archmage's is <em>meteor swarm</em>, but both of them only get one per day.</p><p></p><p>As long as the power of your top-level spells scales at the same rate as a fighter's sword swing, you'll stay at parity with the fighter. The only time spells per day affects this dynamic is at the lowest levels, where you have so few spells that you can actually run out of them in a day's adventuring. And WotC has dealt nicely with that by introducing at-will cantrips.</p><p></p><p>The reason wizards were so powerful in 3E was that their nondamaging spells scaled too fast and offered too many ways to bypass obstacles. The only balance issue caused by Vancian magic, in and of itself, is that it lets wizards accumulate a stupidly large toolbox of spell options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Question: Why are you trying to "fix" Vancian casting? It sounds like your main complaint about Vancian is you find the bookkeeping to be a headache. So do I (I also dislike it for thematic reasons). But other people <em>love</em> that aspect of Vancian casting, and it's central to the whole mechanic. So instead of trying to change Vancian to be more like what I want, I just focus on agitating to have non-Vancian caster options. Let the Vance-lovers have their wizards and their elaborate spell prep plans. As long as I get the option to play a sorceror or a half-decent warlock*, we can all be happy.</p><p></p><p>[size=-2]*What is it about the warlock, anyway? No edition of D&D yet has managed to produce a warlock that isn't weaksauce. Given how much I love the concept, this makes me really sad.[/size]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 6042059, member: 58197"] This is the same way of thinking that concluded 3E warlocks were OMG BROKEN because they didn't have use limits on their invocations--even though those invocations were no more powerful than a ranger shooting a bow. No matter how many spells you have in your arsenal, you still only get to cast one per round. Your power level scales strictly with the power of your spells; spells per day is not a factor, except insofar as it limits your top-level spell slots. But you never get more of those! A 5th-level hedge wizard and a 17th-level archmage both have the same number of top-level spell slots. Sure, the hedge wizard's best blasting spell is [i]fireball[/i] and the archmage's is [i]meteor swarm[/i], but both of them only get one per day. As long as the power of your top-level spells scales at the same rate as a fighter's sword swing, you'll stay at parity with the fighter. The only time spells per day affects this dynamic is at the lowest levels, where you have so few spells that you can actually run out of them in a day's adventuring. And WotC has dealt nicely with that by introducing at-will cantrips. The reason wizards were so powerful in 3E was that their nondamaging spells scaled too fast and offered too many ways to bypass obstacles. The only balance issue caused by Vancian magic, in and of itself, is that it lets wizards accumulate a stupidly large toolbox of spell options. Question: Why are you trying to "fix" Vancian casting? It sounds like your main complaint about Vancian is you find the bookkeeping to be a headache. So do I (I also dislike it for thematic reasons). But other people [i]love[/i] that aspect of Vancian casting, and it's central to the whole mechanic. So instead of trying to change Vancian to be more like what I want, I just focus on agitating to have non-Vancian caster options. Let the Vance-lovers have their wizards and their elaborate spell prep plans. As long as I get the option to play a sorceror or a half-decent warlock*, we can all be happy. [size=-2]*What is it about the warlock, anyway? No edition of D&D yet has managed to produce a warlock that isn't weaksauce. Given how much I love the concept, this makes me really sad.[/size] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How to Fix Wizards and Vancian Casting
Top