D&D 5E How to Fix Wizards and Vancian Casting

Falling Icicle

Adventurer
The new playtest packet is, to be blunt, a disaster for wizards (and clerics). They seem to be having alot of trouble figuring out how to keep vancian casting while avoiding the problems it has caused in the past. I beleive I have the solution, and it's actually quite simple: keep spell slots and preparation, but also have spell points! For example, a 3rd level wizard might have 3 1st level spell slots and 1 2nd level slot, and have 5 spell points (just tossing out numbers for the sake of example). This would mean that the wizard can prepare 3 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell, but can cast any combination of those spells that totals 5 points.

There are several benefits to using this approach:

* It retains what is, IMO, the best feature of Vancian casting: the strategic element of choosing spells while simultaneously getting rid of its biggest flaws. You still choose whether or not to prepare fireball today, but you don't have to guess how many fireballs you will need today.

* By keeping the number of spells that a caster can prepare and the number of spells a caster can cast each day separate, it allows spellcasters to have greater flexibility without necessarily giving them greater power. The daily spell slots in past D&D editions add up to a staggering number of spells each day, to the point that high level casters rarely, if ever, run out of spells. The new playtest packet tried to address this problem by greatly reducing the number of spell slots, but that also reduces a caster's daily preparation choices to such a low number that it's almost pointless to even have preparation at all. You don't have much room for strategic or flavorful choices when you can only prepare 2 spells of a given level out of dozens. By keeping the two resources separate, you can leave a wizard's versatility intact while still reducing how many spells he can cast each day.

* It works better with scaling spells. For example, instead of having to worry about preparing magic missile in a higher level spell slot, the spell could simply shoot one missile for each spell point spent casting it.

* Metamagics work much better with spell points. Want to cast a Silent Spell? Just add +1 to the spell's spell point cost. Easy, and sorcerers don't get to be vastly better at metamagics than wizards, since wizards wouldn't need to prepare metamagics in advance.

* It makes sorcerers more balanced with and easier to use alongside wizards. Sorcerers would just have a set of spells known that they can't change on a daily basis. They could get more spell points or other perks (like cool origin powers) as compensation (of course, not having to pay for or have the liability of a spellbook is a nice benefit in and of itself).

* Other game elements can be designed to interact with spell points much easier than daily spells. You could have magic weapons that drain spell points from those they strike, potions that restore spell points, abilities that let a caster donate spell points to another character, and so on. You see very few mechanics like this in past editions because spell slots are so clunky and hard to work with. You did see a few, like energy drain in 3.x causing a character to lose their highest level spell slot, but that is a very clunky and inelegant mechanic compared to what can be done with spell points.
 

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Blackbrrd

First Post
I don't think the Wizard was that bad, the spells he got actually looked to be pretty effective, with ok at-will spells and the possibility of ok signature spells. What I really disliked was the cleric who had very boring spells and combat abilities, especially early on.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
It's an interesting suggestion. I like it. I like the potential flexibility...it would undoubtedly be enjoyed by many and/or work well in...well, a fantasy RPG system that wasn't D&D.

The thread and all of the others like it (not meaning to single you out, Falling Icicle) discussing magic systems, in general, are working off of the flawed (however popular) premise that wizards and "vancian" magic require fixing.

--SD
 

DogBackward

First Post
Personally, I'd want a mix of the two. Spell points, but still preparing unique spells. You'd have 5 spell points, and could prepare any five levels worth of spells. Spell points spent on signature spells would return when they were used, so you could use them again... to prepare another signature spell, or any other spell. You'd still have to spend the one minute per spell level to prepare the spell, so you'd keep the "every few minutes" bit of signature spells without having to keep track of extra timers.

Too much flexibility is, in my opinion, a problem for casters. They already have spells that can be better than what other classes can do. Having a limited number of uses and limited flexibility in what spells they can bring to bear at any given time are what balances that out. Flexibility in spells prepared is great, but being able to pick and choose from that list whenever they feel like it can cause balance issues.

I would, on the other hand, support a difficult choice between the two. For example, use my preparation-with-spellpoints model above, but also allow spontaneous casting by spending unprepared spell points... but spontaneous casting requires you to keep casting until the start of your next turn, making your spell easily interrupted, or at the very least giving the enemies time to scatter before your Fireball goes off. And you'd have to leave spell points unprepared, which leaves you with less spells that you can cast quickly. This also means that utility casters could flourish, since it's easier to use a spontaneous spell out of battle than in.
 

Derren

Hero
I still don't see the problems with vancian casting which can't be solved by good (non-static) world design which should be the default anyway.
 

Uller

Adventurer
I still don't see the problems with vancian casting which can't be solved by good (non-static) world design which should be the default anyway.

I don't think the OP is saying there is a problem with vancian casting in general. He is saying that if casters are limited to two spell per spell level then one of the key features of the vancian system (strategic flexibility) is severly limited.

I'm a fan of VC. But I like the suggestion especially if the number of spell slots are very low.
 

Hautamaki

First Post
I still don't see the problems with vancian casting which can't be solved by good (non-static) world design which should be the default anyway.

The problem as I see it with Vancian casting is that it increases in power exponentially. In other words, it increases in power along 2 different but equally important tracks.

1) spells per day increase
2) spells themselves increase in power

If both of those things are true to any degree at all, Vancian casters get exponentially more powerful as they level up.

Why is that a problem? Because other classes do not get exponentially more powerful as they level up. Other classes traditionally have been limited to linear increases in attack bonus.

So what is the result? Underpowered casters at low level and overpowered casters at high level. Now maybe balance between character classes is not important at all to you but traditionally this is what the problem has been for people who have one.

So what is the alternative? 4e explored one alternative: make all classes equally Vancian with the AEDU system. Other systems like the one proposed above use 'magic points' to give Wizards a choice between casting more spells per day or using more powerful spells, but is limited to a basically linear increase of spell-power-usage-per-day over levels.
 

Stormonu

Legend
The problem I see with Vancian casters is the "too easy to run out of spells at low level, never run out at high level".

If the wizard kept near the same number of spells handy at all times and the power of those spells simply shifted stronger or weaker, I think that would help a lot. So, for example at 1st level, the wizard has 5 spells total, and at 10th he has 5 as well. The difference is that at 1st, the wizard is using magic missile, at 10th he's unleashing chain lightning.

To a lesser degree, pre-selecting spells is a bit of an issue. However, the fighter goes into the adventure with a set bit of gear - sword, shield and a specific set of armor and the rogue doesn't get to swap around what skills he knows in the middle of the dungeon. Why should the wizard get a free pass to tailor his spells to the encounter at hand? Though it would be nice if the wizard's spellbook might be treated as his "equipment pack" with the equivilant of a fighter's spare weapon or bow or a rogue's backpack full of grappling hooks, ear cones, silk shoes (for stealth) and the like, it should take time to do these sort of switch-outs and they should be strictly limited.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
The problem I see with Vancian casters is the "too easy to run out of spells at low level, never run out at high level".

If the wizard kept near the same number of spells handy at all times and the power of those spells simply shifted stronger or weaker, I think that would help a lot. So, for example at 1st level, the wizard has 5 spells total, and at 10th he has 5 as well. The difference is that at 1st, the wizard is using magic missile, at 10th he's unleashing chain lightning.

I agree with this and always have. Especially now that wizard and clerics get at-will magic. I'd handle it something like this:

At first level, you can prepare three spells. You can prepare an additional spell at third, sixth, and ninth level, but no more than three spells of the same level may be prepared at the same time.

In addition, as you gain levels your tradition or diety grants you additional at-will spells pulled from the first, second, and third level spell lists.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
The problem I see with Vancian casters is the "too easy to run out of spells at low level, never run out at high level".

If the wizard kept near the same number of spells handy at all times and the power of those spells simply shifted stronger or weaker, I think that would help a lot.

Isn't that closer to how spell casters actually worked in Vance's books (only able to keep a certain small number of them in their head at one time, irregardless of power)?
 

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