D&D 5E How to Fix Wizards and Vancian Casting

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Well both the main advantage and the disadvantages are: Vancian is quite potent and flexible on the bigger scheme of things. A vancian caster can rewrite most of his abilities everyday, in other words a flexible wizard can afford to become a different character in all but name each adventuring day.

However due to it's power, some groups developed the five minute workday and the scry-buff-teleport which cause serious disruption on higher levels. And of course there is the niche invasion it allows. but the possibility of niche invasion is part of what makes it feel magical to begin with. Look at the alternative, under the old Vancian, magic felt magical, you could potentially do anything with it (if you had the right spell), while under AEDU it becomes "one hundred ways to fry things".

Warning, the following is a very personal and loaded statement:
Personally the only kind of vancian casters I like are divine casters (cleric, some priests and in 3.5 the healer) I'm not really a sucker for wizards but I'm concerned about what they do with them, because the designers refuse to admit the sorcerer and the wizard are fundamentally different and nerf the sorcerer along with the wizard, which is awfull. The sorcerer doesn't needs nerfing, or at least not that much nerfing, unlike the wizard, the sorcerer is an specialist by nature, he has to pick a niche and run with it, unlike the wizard.
 

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GameDoc

Explorer
My problem with Vancian magic is that it mechanically imposes a narrative element in the setting instead of being able to mechanically model multiple narratives about the nature of magic.

Whatever the history or role of combat, skulduggery, or thievery plays in a campaign setting, the mechanics that D&D uses can generally model it.

A fighter knows how to use his weapons and armor. He doesn't "run out" of attacks at some point during the day or have to decide each morning whether he is going to be proficient with a battleaxe or a longsword today and be prohibited from weilding the other until tomorrow. Nor does a rogue run out of sneak attacks or get limited in the number of locks he can pick or have to choose each day whether he is going to be stealthy or acrobatic, but not both.

Of course, some limites have to put on magic, otherwise spellcasters would greatly overshadow other types of characters. But it would be nice to have the mechanics that govern spellcasting be abstract and flexible enough to allow those who write up settings not have to adopt the "you only have access to a subset of your spells each day and if you want to cast one more than once, you'll have to give up even more" as the only explanation.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
please, its a well established fact that very few campaigns go from 1-20.

I was referring more to the entirety of your post, not simply that one statement; however, I'd postulate that pre 3e, the game made no assumptions as to whatever level a game would go to. Originally, there was no maximum level.
 

Ferghis

First Post
Well both the main advantage and the disadvantages are: Vancian is quite potent and flexible on the bigger scheme of things. A vancian caster can rewrite most of his abilities everyday, in other words a flexible wizard can afford to become a different character in all but name each adventuring day.
I think the flexibility is mildly misrepresented as an advantage, at least in my experience. It certainly applies in those rare instances where the caster knows of an upcoming situation that requires a particular set of otherwise-rarely-used spells. But I've only been in that situation a small handful of times in 25 years of gaming. Personally, other than it is a traditional D&D mechanic, I see no game-design advantage to the Vancian system. I do see several disadvantages to it.

However due to it's power, some groups developed the five minute workday and the scry-buff-teleport which cause serious disruption on higher levels. And of course there is the niche invasion it allows. but the possibility of niche invasion is part of what makes it feel magical to begin with. Look at the alternative, under the old Vancian, magic felt magical, you could potentially do anything with it (if you had the right spell), while under AEDU it becomes "one hundred ways to fry things".
The five minute workday is a phenomenon that arises not only due to vancian spellcasting, but the latter certainly contributes to it.

The disadvantage of AEDU you mention is not intrinsic to it. And it certainly doesn't apply if you use rituals. But back to the disadvantages of the vancian system, just so I'm clear on what is trying to be fixed in this thread.

At mid to high level, vancian spell slots take a while to fill, at least if you have a decent library of choices and the choices are equally viable. First second edition made this easier by offering a lot of poor choices that nobody would select unless you knew of a specific upcoming situation that would need the otherwise sub-par spell. There might be a library of about 50 to 70 choices, and about 20-30 slots to fill. Unless I was thoroughly familiar with the spells, it could easily take me an hour or so to make those selections. To make my life easier, I used to have three sets of default selections: camp/healing, travel/wilderness, and dungeon. It still took time to make sure I had the right stuff memorized.

Further, the vancian system means that certain circumstantial spells were never memorized (unless you knew of a specific upcoming circumstance that required that spell). My clerics and druids regularly wound up making scrolls of neutralize poison and cure disease, because memorizing those spells would be a waste of a valuable slot. These kinds of spells are much better handled by the 4e rituals mechanic, perhaps boosted by a certain amount of free rituals per level per day.

I would much rather see a hybrid AEDU/ritual system, where spells can be promoted from daily to encounter and later at-wills as characters gain levels. This would somewhat simulate the availability of a often-memorized spell under the vancian system. Spell management becomes much, much easier, and one gets to the "fun" part of the game much quicker, under the AEDU system.
 

Dausuul

Legend
The problem as I see it with Vancian casting is that it increases in power exponentially. In other words, it increases in power along 2 different but equally important tracks.

1) spells per day increase
2) spells themselves increase in power

If both of those things are true to any degree at all, Vancian casters get exponentially more powerful as they level up.

This is the same way of thinking that concluded 3E warlocks were OMG BROKEN because they didn't have use limits on their invocations--even though those invocations were no more powerful than a ranger shooting a bow.

No matter how many spells you have in your arsenal, you still only get to cast one per round. Your power level scales strictly with the power of your spells; spells per day is not a factor, except insofar as it limits your top-level spell slots. But you never get more of those! A 5th-level hedge wizard and a 17th-level archmage both have the same number of top-level spell slots. Sure, the hedge wizard's best blasting spell is fireball and the archmage's is meteor swarm, but both of them only get one per day.

As long as the power of your top-level spells scales at the same rate as a fighter's sword swing, you'll stay at parity with the fighter. The only time spells per day affects this dynamic is at the lowest levels, where you have so few spells that you can actually run out of them in a day's adventuring. And WotC has dealt nicely with that by introducing at-will cantrips.

The reason wizards were so powerful in 3E was that their nondamaging spells scaled too fast and offered too many ways to bypass obstacles. The only balance issue caused by Vancian magic, in and of itself, is that it lets wizards accumulate a stupidly large toolbox of spell options.

I would much rather see a hybrid AEDU/ritual system, where spells can be promoted from daily to encounter and later at-wills as characters gain levels. This would somewhat simulate the availability of a often-memorized spell under the vancian system. Spell management becomes much, much easier, and one gets to the "fun" part of the game much quicker, under the AEDU system.

Question: Why are you trying to "fix" Vancian casting? It sounds like your main complaint about Vancian is you find the bookkeeping to be a headache. So do I (I also dislike it for thematic reasons). But other people love that aspect of Vancian casting, and it's central to the whole mechanic. So instead of trying to change Vancian to be more like what I want, I just focus on agitating to have non-Vancian caster options. Let the Vance-lovers have their wizards and their elaborate spell prep plans. As long as I get the option to play a sorceror or a half-decent warlock*, we can all be happy.

[size=-2]*What is it about the warlock, anyway? No edition of D&D yet has managed to produce a warlock that isn't weaksauce. Given how much I love the concept, this makes me really sad.[/size]
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
This is the same way of thinking that concluded 3E warlocks were OMG BROKEN because they didn't have use limits on their invocations--even though those invocations were no more powerful than a ranger shooting a bow.

No matter how many spells you have in your arsenal, you still only get to cast one per round. Your power level scales strictly with the power of your spells; spells per day is not a factor, except insofar as it limits your top-level spell slots. But you never get more of those! A 5th-level hedge wizard and a 17th-level archmage both have the same number of top-level spell slots. Sure, the hedge wizard's best blasting spell is fireball and the archmage's is meteor swarm, but both of them only get one per day.

As long as the power of your top-level spells scales at the same rate as a fighter's sword swing, you'll stay at parity with the fighter. The only time spells per day affects this dynamic is at the lowest levels, where you have so few spells that you can actually run out of them in a day's adventuring. And WotC has dealt nicely with that by introducing at-will cantrips.

The reason wizards were so powerful in 3E was that their nondamaging spells scaled too fast and offered too many ways to bypass obstacles. The only balance issue caused by Vancian magic, in and of itself, is that it lets wizards accumulate a stupidly large toolbox of spell options.



Question: Why are you trying to "fix" Vancian casting? It sounds like your main complaint about Vancian is you find the bookkeeping to be a headache. So do I (I also dislike it for thematic reasons). But other people love that aspect of Vancian casting, and it's central to the whole mechanic. So instead of trying to change Vancian to be more like what I want, I just focus on agitating to have non-Vancian caster options. Let the Vance-lovers have their wizards and their elaborate spell prep plans. As long as I get the option to play a sorceror or a half-decent warlock*, we can all be happy.

[size=-2]*What is it about the warlock, anyway? No edition of D&D yet has managed to produce a warlock that isn't weaksauce. Given how much I love the concept, this makes me really sad.[/size]
I agree, the biggest strength of Vancian magic is the extreme flexibility, keeping things toned down (like the old max spells known by level, and not too much slots every level) helps in that regard. And people are forgetting that it wasn't vancian per se what made wizards broken, it was the cheap scroll and wand crafting. (Though the ability to learn the whol spell compendium didin't help matters either).

I prefer this kind of fix to one more intrusive, mainly because doing things like "here is your combat spells, here is your non combat stuff, and oh the second half costs money and forces to carry around a spellbook regardless of what makes sense for your caster". Really I'd rather not have every spellcaster being a blaster by default. I understand there is the "I want to do something magical every round", but I like it more when the spellcaster uses mundane means when they make sense.
 

n00bdragon

First Post
Vancian casting is a lot of book keeping for little benefit other than tradition. The nature of magic in D&D where it outright ignores the standard methods of task resolution (attacks and skills) makes it feel "magical" to some but to people in the know it becomes an impossible to balance plot-mallet put directly into the player's hands. Many people never discover how to abuse what D&D magic can do or simply choose not to do so or are subject to bizarre and often poorly thought out DM imposed house-rules that keep them from being whatever the DM considers broken. So you have lots of people who've played in games that never experience these problems and may even be astounded to hear that they exist. But that doesn't make the problems go away anymore than living in a small town makes big city crime go away. All of D&D's implementations of vancian casting have had this potential for perverse abuse in the rules as written, but that's not how it should be. Instead of relying on the DM to fix things or relying on the players to police themselves the game should be written properly.

The rules should not allow Vancian casters to be overpowered. Namely, to totally rearrange their given class abilities each morning at dawn and to totally bypass the standard task resolution systems by doing anything and everything equal or better than the non-magical equivalent.

It's not simply enough to say "if you don't like it play something else" because the problem stems exactly from the fact that the option exists, not that people are forced to take it. It's also not enough to just ban the offending classes outright. Because in that case why not just play 3.5 or Pathfinder and ban anything tier 2 or higher?

It's also quite irrelevant that "some people enjoy playing bad casters/broken casters/whatever" or that "I totally had fun playing at my table for over 9000 years as a vancian caster/non-magical character" because as stated before many people are simply, from a mechanical standpoint, bad at playing the game. Not that they are bad people or that they are having badwrongfun but they are playing the game in a suboptimal way. It's absurd to balance the game around suboptimal play and then write off optimal play as "incorrect".
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
<insert agreement on how RAW shouldn't be broken to start with>

The rules should not allow Vancian casters to be overpowered. Namely, to totally rearrange their given class abilities each morning at dawn and to totally bypass the standard task resolution systems by doing anything and everything equal or better than the non-magical equivalent.

Aren't the limit on times per day and need to choose ahead there to be balance against the flexibility? Is the overpowering an effect of the Vancian system, or of the number of spells given per level and how they increase in power for the particular implementations in past editions? (as per [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6689464]KaiiLurker[/MENTION] above)

For example, if the difficulty is that it lets mages be better than the non-magical equivalent in the equivalent's specialty, then make knock work as if the mage were a thief of a few levels lower. If it's that the damage dealing is out of scale with the fighters, then reign it in. If it's that some spells are too powerful (old Heal) then reduce the power (PF Heal). If its that some spells just break things, then take them off the list. If it's that they're too weak at low-levels (1e) then give them reasonable orisons (PF).

On the other hand, if the the caster can use a "green ray of damage" every round that's just like shooting an arrow, and the caster's mystic "get better magic" has the same affect as some unit commander yelling "get up", and everyone can do the cool non-combat "magic" with just a little training... well, if the magic is the same as the mundane, then that's exactly what it is.
 
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Falling Icicle

Adventurer
Well both the main advantage and the disadvantages are: Vancian is quite potent and flexible on the bigger scheme of things. A vancian caster can rewrite most of his abilities everyday, in other words a flexible wizard can afford to become a different character in all but name each adventuring day.

Alot of people also like vancian casting because the stategy of choosing one's daily spells is something that some players enjoy. This is the argument in favor of vancian casting to which I am the most sympathetic.

That said, since we're getting into a discussion of the pros and cons of it, I just want to say I'm not really a huge fan of vancian casting in general. I made this thread to offer a compromise, since it seems that the developers of Next are unwilling to abandon vancian casting no matter what.

My problem with Vancian magic is that it mechanically imposes a narrative element in the setting instead of being able to mechanically model multiple narratives about the nature of magic.

Whatever the history or role of combat, skulduggery, or thievery plays in a campaign setting, the mechanics that D&D uses can generally model it.

A fighter knows how to use his weapons and armor. He doesn't "run out" of attacks at some point during the day or have to decide each morning whether he is going to be proficient with a battleaxe or a longsword today and be prohibited from weilding the other until tomorrow. Nor does a rogue run out of sneak attacks or get limited in the number of locks he can pick or have to choose each day whether he is going to be stealthy or acrobatic, but not both.

Of course, some limites have to put on magic, otherwise spellcasters would greatly overshadow other types of characters. But it would be nice to have the mechanics that govern spellcasting be abstract and flexible enough to allow those who write up settings not have to adopt the "you only have access to a subset of your spells each day and if you want to cast one more than once, you'll have to give up even more" as the only explanation.

I agree. One of the biggest complains I have about vancian casting is how much of a "dissasociated mechanic" it is. It just doesn't make sense to me, as in, if magic were real, I can't imagine it would work that way. I've seen many variations of magic users in a variety of literature, tv shows and movies, and I've never once seen anything like vancian casting in any of them (other than those which are based upon D&D, of course, and even they usually tend to ignore or at least don't emphasize the issue).

Alot of wizards use spellbooks, but they cast the spell right out of the book, they don't spend long periods of time "memorizing" or "preparing" the spell and then forget it once they cast it. That's ridiculous. Most magic users in fiction don't run out of spells per day, either. Usually, if there is any limit, it's because magic is mentally taxing and the caster becomes exhausted from pushing his or her limits too far, which makes far more sense than an arbitrary daily limit.

Back to the mechanical side of things, I think the 3.5 warlock did a great job of demonstrating that you can have magic that is at-will and yet doesn't break the game. I think you can balance spells in alot of other ways that make more sense than daily limits, and I think that daily limits in general are bad game design (see the 5 minute workday). Here's just a few examples of other ways of balancing spells:

* Casting Time. Let's take a spell like fireball, for example. It's a powerful artillery spell that hits several creatures at once. So how do you balance that against spells that do similar damage but are only single target? One way is to make fireball take longer to cast. If it took a full round (like 3.x summong spells) to cast a fireball, the caster would be vulnerable to disruption during that period, so choosing to use that spell would be a strategic choice and highly risky in many situations.

* Rituals. Some spells take a very long time to cast. Minutes, hours, or even longer. That helps prevent characters from using these spells frivolously. In the recent playtest article they were even talking about removing the gold cost from many rituals, which would effectively make them at-will.

* Limiting spells to one instance at a time. Many spells could be restricted so that you can only have one in effect at a time. For example, the wall of fire spell could state that you can only have one wall of fire in existence at a time. If you cast another, the previous one disappears.

* Temporary Immunity. Sells like Charm would be overpowered if you could just keep casting them over and over on the same target until he finally fails his saving throw. To prevent such abuse, targets could be granted temporary immunity to the spell if they make their save. For exmaple, the spell could say "if the target succeeds on its saving throw, you can't attempt to charm it again for 24 hours."

* Concentration. Spells that require concentration prevent you from doing anything else but moving, and they can be disrupted while you concentrate on them.

* A limit on maintaining spells. Casters could have a general limit that they can only maintain so many spells at a time. A good number would be their primary magic ability bonus, for example. This prevents players from stacking huge numbers of buff spells on themselves or others, or blanketing an area with dozens of crowd control effects.

* Fatigue/Exhaustion. Some very powerful spells might fatigue or exhaust the character. Maybe the wizard has to make a saving throw or become fatigued whenever he casts a particularly powerful spell like Time Stop, for example.

* Cooldowns. We've already seen this mechanic in breath weapons, and 4e had a recharge mechanic on monsters that is similar. Some spells, like the aforementioned Time Stop, could have a "cooldown" before you could cast it again, since it would be game breaking if the caster could cast it over and over again without limit.

* Special Components. This is another mechanic that has long been used in D&D. If a caster has to sacrifice an expensive item or resource to cast a spell, that obviously puts a strict limit on how often he can cast it.

* Preparation. Not preparation from a spellbook as we're used to thinking of it, but some spells could require some kind of special research about the target, strange alchemical mixtures, or other things that might not be expensive but still need to be prepared in advance. For example, the planar binding spells require you to prepare a magic circle that traps the creature to be summoned.
 

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