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Message: <blockquote data-quote="n00bdragon" data-source="post: 6042081" data-attributes="member: 6689371">Vancian casting is a lot of book keeping for little benefit other than tradition. The nature of magic in D&D where it outright ignores the standard methods of task resolution (attacks and skills) makes it feel "magical" to some but to people in the know it becomes an impossible to balance plot-mallet put directly into the player's hands. Many people never discover how to abuse what D&D magic can do or simply choose not to do so or are subject to bizarre and often poorly thought out DM imposed house-rules that keep them from being whatever the DM considers broken. So you have lots of people who've played in games that never experience these problems and may even be astounded to hear that they exist. But that doesn't make the problems go away anymore than living in a small town makes big city crime go away. All of D&D's implementations of vancian casting have had this potential for perverse abuse in the rules as written, but that's not how it should be. Instead of relying on the DM to fix things or relying on the players to police themselves the game should be written properly. The rules should not allow Vancian casters to be overpowered. Namely, to totally rearrange their given class abilities each morning at dawn and to totally bypass the standard task resolution systems by doing anything and everything equal or better than the non-magical equivalent.It's not simply enough to say "if you don't like it play something else" because the problem stems exactly from the fact that the option exists, not that people are forced to take it. It's also not enough to just ban the offending classes outright. Because in that case why not just play 3.5 or  Pathfinder and ban anything tier 2 or higher?It's also quite irrelevant that "some people enjoy playing bad casters/broken casters/whatever" or that "I totally had fun playing at my table for over 9000 years as a vancian caster/non-magical character" because as stated before many people are simply, from a mechanical standpoint, bad at playing the game. Not that they are bad people or that they are having badwrongfun but they are playing the game in a suboptimal way. It's absurd to balance the game around suboptimal play and then write off optimal play as "incorrect".</blockquote>

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