How to hide from True Seeing?

[Lord Pendragon]

About Arcane Eye: It's basically a mobile scrying sensor and against that Mind Blank protects, of course.

And yet, all it does is "see" what's there...just like True Seeing. The difference being True Seeing lets you ignore concealment magic, and Arcane Eye lets you ignore the intervening distance between you and what you want to look at.

 

[Treebore]

Arcane eye is classified by the rules as a scrying device. True Seeing is not. Sorry, you need to try again.

 

[Treebore]

[sarcasm]Yeah. Everyone knows that the most important source is the spell name, not the actual spell description.

Before you know it some crazy munchkin will come along and claim that mind blank protects you from arcane eye, as if that didn't involve sight or was a mind-affecting spell...[/sarcasm]

If you want to take the time to read True Seeing it has none of the descriptors listed in the Mind Blank spell, so by the rules Mind Blank cannot stop True Seeing, nor should it. Mind Blank has two purposes, to pretect your thoughts/mind and to keep you and info about you from being found by scrying. If mind blank works the way you seem to think it does then they would have said it simply negates all divination spells.

Now that ruling would be a munchkin/powergamer wet dream. One spell that can negate a whole class of spells!! Yippeee!! So if you are actually interested in game balance no one would try to imply or read into Mind Blank that it negates all Divination spells. Mind Blank is powerful enough as it is. At least it (true Seeing) can't detect magical auras or alignments like it could in 2e.

The description of mind blank is clearly meant to block scrying and mind controlling spells only, not all divination spells. Maybe they should of classified True Seeing as an Alteration spell, since it is a magical enhancement to vision. Then you would have no argument whatsoever, since True Seeing would no longer be in the school of Divination. As it is you are going against the obvious intent of the spell and its description and trying to rules lawyer something into it that isn't there to begin with.

Think about it, the arguments that True Seeing is an "information gathering spell" would lead to a DM having to rule Mind Blank negates ALL divination spells in order to be consistant with the "logic", because Divination as a school is ALL about information gathering in some way.

If True Seeing was meant to be an information gathering spell then why did they specifically disallow its use in conjunction with scrying spells?

You can try to make it seem logical, but it isn't. I'll stick with the obvious intent of Mind Blank and not try to squeeze any more power out of it, especially power that does not belong. Mind Blank is a pain as it is. I don't want to make a ruling that would allow someone to cast improved invisiblity or an illusion of being an Ancient Red Dragon on themselves and in combination with Mind Blank make these spells immune to saves/disbelief/detection or the power of True Seeing.

 

[Thanee]

And yet, all it does is "see" what's there...just like True Seeing. The difference being True Seeing lets you ignore concealment magic, and Arcane Eye lets you ignore the intervening distance between you and what you want to look at.

Yes, that's the difference, and it's exactly where the difference lies as well.

True Seeing enhances your own vision, while Arcane Eye is a magical scrying sensor, and scrying is specifically mentioned in the Mind Blank description, while your very own vision is not limited by the spell.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

Mind Blank has two purposes, to pretect your thoughts/mind and to keep you and info about you from being found by scrying. If mind blank works the way you seem to think it does then they would have said it simply negates all divination spells.

You're looking "at" two invisible people, with true seeing active. One is protected by mind blank, one isn't. If mind blank simply protects the caster from information gathering by divination spells, you can see one of them. If mind blank "negates" divination spells one could argue that you can't see any of them, as your true seeing has been "negated".

What if you want to use divination spells yourself? Can you do that if they're "negated"?

One spell that can negate a whole class of spells!! Yippeee!!

This is self-irony, right? Please tell me it's self-irony...

After all, you want the true seeing spell (lv 5/6/7) to negate the entire school of illusion, as well as parts of the transmutation school. With no possible defense.

The description of mind blank is clearly meant to block scrying and mind controlling spells only, not all divination spells.

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

If by "information gathering by divination spells or effects" they meant "spells of the [scrying] subschool", why didn't they just say so?

Another example: Discern location.
Not mind-affecting. Not a scying spell. Yet mind blank protects against it. Funny that, given how mind blank is "clearly" meant to block scrying and mind controlling spells "only"...

Maybe they should of classified True Seeing as an Alteration spell, since it is a magical enhancement to vision.

Had you been right, maybe they should. As it stands, they didn't. True seeing is not a transmutation spell. It gives you 120 feet of "magical detection", regardless of darkness or illusions.

Think about it, the arguments that True Seeing is an "information gathering spell" would lead to a DM having to rule Mind Blank negates ALL divination spells in order to be consistant with the "logic", because Divination as a school is ALL about information gathering in some way.

Uh, yes. Allow me to quote the official FAQ: ...the general rule in the D&D game favors defense over offense, so mind blank’s ability to block scrying and all forms of divination... -- page 56, official 3.0 DnD FAQ. (Context is discern location vs. mindblank, which was clarified in 3.5, but the relevant rule regarding divination spells has not changed.)

(The 3.0 Sage ruling is different - he says mind blank does not protects against true seeing/see invisible, but nondetection does.)

If True Seeing was meant to be an information gathering spell then why did they specifically disallow its use in conjunction with scrying spells?

I fail to understand the question. If true seeing was meant to just "enhance your vision", why doesn't it work with scrying? After all, "the sensor has your full visual acuity".

Nothing about being an "information gathering spell" implies that it should stack with all other "information gathering spells".