How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[atom crash]

There have been a lot of claims that a player cannot initiate a combat by declaring a ready action, but not a single rule has been quoted to prove it.

This is all covered by the DMG, pg. 21-26, as I posted in response #77 in this thread.

Also, you don't need to quote a rule to prove a point when the absence of a contrary rule proves the point.

The DMG says that the DM is responsible for adjudicating combat -- and this includes initiating and ending combat -- and it goes on to warn DMs not to allow characters to use combat actions outside of combat, with the notable exception of casting healing spells.

If a player were to say, "I'm covering the door with my bow. I'm shooting the first thing that comes through," that would certainly be valid. But it's not an action, it's an intent. And it doesn't initiate combat. Combat begins -- and initiative is rolled -- when those specific conditions are met -- when there are two or more sides joining for battle.

But it's silly to allow a character to say, "I attack the first thing I see" or "I ready an action to sip lemonade" (since you're fond of extreme examples) and let them all roll initiative then. Why? Because there's no enemy around!

 

[IcyCool]

KarinsDad, here are the relevant bits of the DMG (the one's that atom crash keeps mentioning).

Although it's good to give characters some chance to detect a coming encounter, ultimately it's you who decides when the first round begins and where each side is when it does.

And

Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat. While the above examples are all acceptable in the middle of an encounter, a player cannot use the ready action to cover a door with his crossbow outside of combat. It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware. If the character coming through the door wasn't aware of him, he gets an extra standard action because he surprised the other character, and so he can shoot the weapon. Otherwise, he still needs to roll initiative for his character normally.

Does this (and my previous post) answer your question?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Really there are no hard an fast rules for Initiative that will work in every case. Initiative defies a simple process because the real world is muddy & simultaneous while our gaming world uses discrete & non-simultaneous "actions" in order to make the resolution mechanics simple.

If you are generous in allowing Readied Actions you can easily get degenerate situations like where you open the door and every combatant is Readied. How does a DM resolve that? Roll Initiative!

You will get oddities around the Sneak Attack, but it a matter of balance and design that Rogues a lucky Rogue gets to dish out the whopass.

A good DM trick if you are worried about bizarre results from movement through combatants is to have a Surprise Round where no one is surprised. Be careful because this can really hurt the Rogues in the party.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Quote a rule to prove this.

There have been a lot of claims that a player cannot initiate a combat by declaring a ready action, but not a single rule has been quoted to prove it.

I did show that "readied actions outside of combat lead to sillyness" though...

As per your own words, this is a rules forum. You do not get to pass go for free without quoting a rule that prohibits this.

Although giving situations where the action is clearly stupid works just fine. Having everyone readied doesn't actually help your situation, it just makes it make less sense.

What is so special about readying an action? It is a combat action. It should immediately start initiative.

If you do it in front of your foes, sure.

OTOH, it also provokes an initiative roll. So you're back to square one. You ready, your foe wins initiative and attacks before you do.

Or you ready, and your foe readies for something that beats you.

 

[KarinsDad]

OTOH, it also provokes an initiative roll. So you're back to square one. You ready, your foe wins initiative and attacks before you do.

Or you ready, and your foe readies for something that beats you.

Assuming your foe realizes that you are doing a ready action and that he is in combat and he does an attack action on his initiative. That, of course, is a DM call (possibly a Spot check), but the intent of this thread was to discuss how to avoid being flat-footed in round one.

If your opponent does not know he is in combat and talks instead of attacks (which is allowed in combat), then you have accomplished the goal.

 

[KarinsDad]

Originally Posted by DMG pg.26, under "Adjudicating the Ready Action"

Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat. While the above examples are all acceptable in the middle of an encounter, a player cannot use the ready action to cover a door with his crossbow outside of combat. It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware. If the character coming through the door wasn't aware of him, he gets an extra standard action because he surprised the other character, and so he can shoot the weapon. Otherwise, he still needs to roll initiative for his character normally.

This quote does not prohibit a character from starting combat by readying an action. It prohibits him from readying an action outside of combat.

Just like swinging your sword does not prohibit a character from starting a combat. You cannot swing your sword (at an opponent) out of combat either.

f a player were to say, "I'm covering the door with my bow. I'm shooting the first thing that comes through," that would certainly be valid. But it's not an action, it's an intent. And it doesn't initiate combat. Combat begins -- and initiative is rolled -- when those specific conditions are met -- when there are two or more sides joining for battle.

You are mistaken twice here.

First, readying an action IS an action. It is not merely an intent. Read the PHB on actions. And nowhere has it been yet illustrated that the rules indicate that readying an action cannot be used to initiate combat.

Second, combat can be joined if one side does not want to be in combat or when one side attacks during a surprise round. The second side does not have any say in the matter. If the DM attacks the PCs in the middle of the night, the PCs did not initiative combat, the NPCs did.

Both sides need not initiate or join into combat for them to be in it. Nor does a single attack need be done by one side (they could run away instead for example).

 

[ThirdWizard]

So, your position is that a character who says that they "Ready an action to attack" will be able to act faster than if they just say "I attack." Because now its a ready action and they can completely ignore the initiative system set up.

How about you do this. Get rid of the flat-footed condition. There.

You can finagle the rules all you like but in the end you arn't going to get a result you like until you House Rule it. People have stated repeatedly what the rules are on this situation, and you simply don't care what the rules are, you will argue and argue until you feel that you are justified by RAW to run your game the way you want to. You're only fooling yourself here, and noone else.

 

[Sledge]

As Gantros has pointed out repeatedly there are methods for the DM to be fair in situations where both sides were prepped for combat. The rules for initiating combat however are lacking. There is no rule the players can use to force the DM to initiate combat short of attacking. When combat starts is up to the DM. The entire flat-footed rule seems to be an intentional pat on the back for the sneak attacks. In some situations it is somewhat appropriate, but usually the surprise simply makes more sense. A DM "could" describe the difference as partial surprise at the beginning of most combat, and complete surprise in the surprise rounds. In the end only the DM gets to decide however, and it may not always be what is fair. (A good house rule for this would be very difficult to create)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Assuming your foe realizes that you are doing a ready action and that he is in combat and he does an attack action on his initiative. That, of course, is a DM call (possibly a Spot check), but the intent of this thread was to discuss how to avoid being flat-footed in round one.

If your opponent does not know he is in combat and talks instead of attacks (which is allowed in combat), then you have accomplished the goal.

He does know he's in combat. He had to roll initiative, remember? There's no spot check needed to know that you're rolling inititative.

Aside from that, he's operating in a world where everyone walks around with readied actions in any situation where they expect trouble. Would you expect your players NOT to do this? Then how can you expect the NPCs not to?

 

[Gantros]

Well if you keep reading, on page 26 they clarify this about as much as you could ask. By the rules as written this is not permitted. I believe the idea is that if you cannot interact, you cannot really have a readied action that is worth anything.

As I've already stated, the bit on pg. 26 does not prohibit what I'm suggesting. It states that actions cannot be readied outside of combat, but nowhere does it define what constitutes the start of combat. The example on pg. 23 demonstrates how it's possible for combat to start (i.e. track time and rounds, and allow preparatory actions to be taken) without any attacks being made, and without rolling for initiative.

If we accept that Ready could be considered a preparatory action (something which is not made clear in the RAW), then you can do the following: Using the Ready action to prepare before the actual fighting begins, you pick one specific event to trigger on and one specific response to make. The restriction on when this can occur is that both parties must be aware of each other, and either unable or unwilling to initiate hostilities immediately. As long as neither side is attacking the other, there is no need to roll initiative because there are no contested actions. As soon as someone opens the door, contested actions can begin and everyone rolls for initiative. As soon as anyone does something that triggers a readied action, that action occurs, regardless of initiative. And once a readied action is triggered, the user is considered to have acted and thus cannot be caught flat-footed in the subsequent round.

Using the example in the DMG, You are covering the door. Another party member moves up to the door to open it. The rest of the party states that they are readying an action to shoot the first orc they see. On the other side of the door, the orcs ready actions to shoot the first PC they see. The door opens and...what? Everyone shoots at the same time? Was everyone looking at the correct spot at the same instance, or was one person looking to the left side of the doorway, another to the right. The orcs have the same problem. You do not know exactly where to look and aim in that first instant. This is what the initiative roll is supposed to simulate. One orc targets you before you target it. He shoots first because he had a better reaction time. I will grant that it stretches logic to think one could run 60 feet at you before you can shoot a bow at him, but what if your readied action was to charge the first orc you see? Which goes first? The orcs bow shot or your charge?

I believe most of the questions you're raising here are only an issue where two opposing readied actions conflict (e.g. orc's bow shot vs. player's charge). In such a case the DM can use the following procedure to handle it:
1) Decide the order of action that makes the most sense according to the particular circumstance. For example, a bow shot should realistically go off before a 60' charge.
2) If it's not clear which should happen first (e.g. the opponents both readied actions to fire bows at each other), rule that both actions happen simultaneously.
3) If for some reason it doesn't make sense for both actions to happen simultaneously, then use initiative to determine who acts first.

This set of guidelines should eliminate the nonsensical situations resulting from using the flat-footedness rule in situations where it really shouldn't apply, and I believe it does so without violating the RAW or introducing any significant balance issues (although I'm interested to hear if anyone can show otherwise).