How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[diaglo]

Just remember, you only get a standard action during a surprise round.

iirc, you also get free actions.

and speaking is a free action. and can be done out of turn.

so the Standard Operating Procedure.. should be to YELL at your buddies to attack as your or their free action.

 

[Gantros]

"I ready an action to fire a shot at the king if he opens his mouth." "... if he blinks."

The assassin can do that I suppose, but it wouldn't make much sense. Remember, the DM must start combat to allow the ready action to be taken, and if the opponents decide to try to oppose it, then initiative must be rolled. Since his opponents can see him readying an attack, they would almost certainly choose to oppose the action, thus forcing initiative checks to see who goes first. Plus, readying an action to attack will always take more time than just attacking, since it means you have to wait until just before the target's next turn to act instead of acting on your own turn.

In this case, I'd imagine the king would try to run for cover, and the guards would try to rush the assassin. If the assassin won initiative, he'd have his action readied first, and unless the king kept his mouth closed and his eyes open for the whole round (hey, it's possible ), he'd have to face the attack just before taking his turn. Note that the guards can now thwart the attack if their turn comes before the assassin OR the king. If the assassin just attacked immediately instead of readying, then the guards would have to beat his initiative.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't see the solution here.

In the example with the assassin and the guards, the assassin sees the king and readies an action to charge him. He then gets to act before everyone else because he readied and action to do so. Now he runs past all the guards who are flatfooted and can't take AoO against him and kills the king before they can react.

And they never even had a chance to beat his initiative because he didn't have to use the initiative system.

I do not understand how you got to this. Only by using the "normal" initiative system does weird things happen.


If the Assassin readies an action to kill the King and he was allowed to initiate combat 5 rounds earlier, but the guards were not aware of it, he does his ready action.

Then, EVERYONE else goes. Then, he goes again. No problem. He goes. Then everyone else gets a turn.

This is fair.


If you run this by the "normal" initiative system, there is the possibility that he is the only one to act on the surprise round, he goes BEFORE everyone else on round one (because he had the best init roll) and he gets away before anyone else can act.

My proposed solution avoids this possibility. Now, this does not happen every time using the normal initiative system, but it can happen.

 

[Garet Jax]

How about this KD. After the surprise round you could do one of two things...

1. Everyone can only take a partial action (attack or move) until all combatants are no longer flat footed. I realize this is a houserule.

2. Like Zaebos said, allow sense motive vs bluff checks for the guards. If they succeed, they are not flatfooted, and therefore can take AOOs when the assassin starts weaving through their column.

I think this would obviate the need to ready attacks out of combat. Someone who declares that they are being vigilant and careful should perhaps get a bonus to spot/listen/sense motive when an ambush does occur. If they succeed they are not flatfooted.

Of course I may be wrong...

 

[IcyCool]

I suppose I will test the theory that if something is repeatedly posted enough times in a thread, people will actually start to read it...

Yes, this is tiring isn't it? I said the following two things:

#1. The DM decides when combat is initiated.

#2. A character cannot use the ready action outside of combat.

Pull out your DMG and flip to page 23. Read the section titled Both Sides Aware at the Same Time, and the accompanying Example (Both Aware but Cannot Interact Immediately). Observe that in this case, combat actions begin before rolling initiative. The examples given are casting spells, drinking potions, moving around, and (although it's not explicitly described as such) readying actions. Time is measured in rounds. The two parties get into position. Then, after two combat rounds have passed, someone opens the door between the two parties. And only then is initiative rolled, because only then does order of action become important.

I don't have my DMG at work with me, could you quote the relevant section? It does, however, sound like the DM decided that combat was initiated. Therefore, combat actions are allowed. So where was the arguement again? What point were you trying to make? I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to flame.

You could, of course, interpret this as saying that only non-combat actions can occur before initiative is rolled, and readying an attack counts as a combat action that triggers initiative. But doing so just results in absurd situations where fully prepared combatants can still be caught flat-footed in the first round of battle, and then suddenly become unable to be caught flat-footed in the midst of battle even when there's a flurry of activity going on around them.

By the RAW, this can happen. Unless the DM decides to initiate combat early.

Why not instead just interpret it the way that has been suggested in this thread? What kind of badness are you afraid it could cause? If people are going to try so hard to look for a way to prevent players from readying actions in preparation for battle, at least explain why you think it is necessary.

I am giving a RAW answer to the question KarinsDad asked, here in the RULES forum. Please don't argue a point I did not make, or assume that I am afraid of changing the rules. KarinsDad asked a question at the start of this thread, and I was answering it. As long as KarinsDad is not allowing players to initiate combat whenever they feel like it, the solution I posted (which is RAW), works without wonkiness.

 

[IcyCool]

For someone who states that I miss or ignore things, you sure do miss or ignore things.

Well, it would appear that I'm not the only one.

I have repeatedly stated that you must be aware of your opponents to initiate combat with a ready action.

See point #1 in section of my post you quoted. That's all I'm saying here. You are incorrect, by the RAW, that a player initiates combat. Is it a bad DM who says "Nope, I decide, so you can't shoot"? Yes, but I'm not making any value judgements here, just putting the RAW out there.

You cannot just aim a crossbow at a door and use this technique because the rules prohibit you from doing it if you are not aware of your opponent. But, here you are giving an example that I have already stated doesn't work with this.

I have repeatedly stated that many actions cannot be used out of combat. Which ones? Combat only ones. Like swinging your sword at an opponent or readying an action or firing your bow at someone. ALL of these actions cannot be done out of combat. So, your point number 2 is irrelevant to this thread.

Fair enough, I did miss that. Consider that point and the accompanying example tossed.

Also, although I am aware that the DM determines when combat starts, I am also aware that most DMs are reasonable. If I declare an action to fire my bow at an opponent, I do not expect the DM to say "Nope, nope. I declare when combat starts, not you.".

So, given all of these misconceptions of yours and lack of reading of what I write, what again is your point?

My Point: You asked how to legally overcom flatfooted, by the RAW. You also mentioned that you are the GM (well, co-GM). So, the answer to your question is, you as the DM decide to initiate combat rounds when your player declares he is readying an action. That's it, simple as that.

The big hang-up I've been having with you is that here, in the rules forum, you have been stating that a player initiates combat. You seem to be aware that this isn't the case, so I'll drop that.

If you aren't satisfied with that, and wish to create your own initiative rules, you know where to go.

Hope I was a bit more clear, and happy gaming!

 

[ThirdWizard]

I do not understand how you got to this. Only by using the "normal" initiative system does weird things happen.

Would your "abnormal" initiative system constitute your "House Rules?"

I still don't see you even mentioning the flat-footed condition. Isn't that what we're talknig about? How does readying outside of combat help the guards not be flat-footed when the assassin rushes forth? In the assassin/guards scenario, as soon as they see each other both will ready actions, so you... roll initiative as normal and go from there. Nothing has changed.

 

[Zaebos]

iirc, you also get free actions.

and speaking is a free action. and can be done out of turn.

so the Standard Operating Procedure.. should be to YELL at your buddies to attack as your or their free action.

Right, you can still yell at your friends, but that does not mean that they can get ready the split second you yell.

The Combat system is an ABSTRACT system, not a system grounded in real life. It happens on a turn by turn scenario, yes, but in actuality, its all happening at the same time during 6 second intervals. A surprise round would then be about 3 seconds.

Buddy yells at friends to ready, those who failed their sense motive, it takes them awhile to ready up, say three seconds, since their attention was not on the attacker apparenlty (probably listening to someone else). So they have a 3 second delay to attack, not unreasonable. Next round everyone attacks at the same time, in initiative order, which takes 6 seconds to complete, but they did act on second 3. If you blew your initiative score, so be it. Combat is never cut and dry and the most careful planning of an encounter rarely works out.

I find no problems with this ABSTRACT system. Some realism is fine in combat, but I would say that if it got TOO indepth, it would take too long to finish a round in combat.

Yelling at your friends doesn't mean they can get ready immediatly. All it means is that you can yell at your friends, whether your friends die rolls are good enough to attack in the surprise round or in the next round.

 

[Zaebos]

How about this KD. After the surprise round you could do one of two things...

1. Everyone can only take a partial action (attack or move) until all combatants are no longer flat footed. I realize this is a houserule.

2. Like Zaebos said, allow sense motive vs bluff checks for the guards. If they succeed, they are not flatfooted, and therefore can take AOOs when the assassin starts weaving through their column.

I think this would obviate the need to ready attacks out of combat. Someone who declares that they are being vigilant and careful should perhaps get a bonus to spot/listen/sense motive when an ambush does occur. If they succeed they are not flatfooted.

Of course I may be wrong...

Everyone who can act during a surprise round can only take a standard action (weather that is an attack action or a move action, that is entirely up to the player). (page 137 PH)

Those who are aware during the surprise round can make AoO's provided that they have already acted during the surprise round. You can not make an AoO when flat-footed (page 137 PH).

Everyone, including the assassin who became hostile is flat-footed at the start of the round. If you beat the attackers initiative roll, you can attack him first, ready an action, or anything else that requires a standard action.

I would allow in this instance a +2 to +4 bonus on sense motive checks if the party is warry of their surroundings.

 

[Zaebos]

Can you take a free action and a standard action as part of a ready action? Suppose I ready an action to attack the first monster to come into melee range. When one does I take an attack - can I also shout, cast a quicken spell, or use some other action?

Using a strict reading of the ready rules (see page 160 of the Players Handbook), the answer is no. While the ready action allows you to combine a 5-foot step as part of the ready action, it doesn't say anything about allowing free actions.
Furthermore, the first sentence of the second paragraph under the Ready heading ("you can ready a standard action, or a free action.") seems to support this, as it clearly sets up a free action as one of the three options, rather than including it as an addition to be included along with either of the other two options.

Since speaking is generally defined as a free action you can perfome "even when it isn't your turn" (see Players Handbook page 144), you don't need to combine a shout with the readied action. You can simply perform it any time you want, including right before or after taking a readied action. The same is true of any spell (or action) that you can cast (or perform) when it isn't your turn, such as casting feather fall, or any spell with a casting time of 1 immediate action. (editied for content) Your couldn't cast a quickend spell, though, as that can't be done when it isn't your turn.

Dragon Magazine 328, Sage Advice page 81.

Just to clarify.