How to make half-giants for 4th ed, as no ECL?

[Silverblade The Ench]

1) I hated the 3rd ed half-giants in Exp Psi handbook, totally weak sauce, ugh!!
half-giants are LARGE, scary badasses, but pretty dumb

2) 4th ed has no ECL! in 3rd ed, ECL usually screwed characters up badly if they had racial hit dice.
IMHO, racial hit dice = bad, for characters. As it reduces their character abilities.
Hence, your minotaur hero, even with racial advantages, would be not nearly as effective as an equivalent fighter.
Thus, racial hit dice should not be used, IMHO, in 4th ed, if it can be avoided.

4th ed is about bonuses, not penalties. But some creatures are not very bright etc.
it's FUN to play some nasty critter, within limits, and half-giants are a valid character race in Dark Sun.

3) My suggestion for Dark Sun half-giants in 4th ed.


EDIT
from folk's input on WOTC forums etc:

hm, well if the bonus to strength and size IS their entire racial bonus, it should be ok?
And lose any stat penalties, in line with 4th ed.

no racial "ability" (their strength and size is that) so remove the "Unstoppable" power.

so +4 Str/Con. Large size, Rach 2.
Until further info, go with RL common sense stuff based on mass and simplification. Halfgiants have about x8 to x10 Human mass beng 10' to 12' high, but also massively built, (double size 2x2x2= 8, but for simplicty and massive build say x10).

base gear cost of size so x10 cost for gear. That cost and water useage is a penalty in DS!!

Halfgiants NEED Large sized equipment, non large sized weapons give -2 hit penalty. (in 4th ed most penalties are -2 as standard, or -5 if severe).
Human 2 hand wepaons can be used 1 handed at that penalty.
A greatsword would still have too thin a handle etc for halfgiant comfort, though they would use it 1 handed.

ALso, size is a problem, they'd be "squeezing" or whaetever in many instances, as Human builngs are moslty 7' to 10' ceiling, so DM's need to keep note on that. Simple rule would this:

Halfgint size means that unless a roof is 15' or more high, they suffer a -2 attack penalty due ot insufficent space, unless they use a Light weapon.

Alignment left ot a "fluff" item. As IMHO, it is more like long term ethical shifts than morals?


So, new rules in toto

HALF-GIANT
SIZE = LARGE (reach 2)
Str +4, Con +4,
half-giants are incredibly strong and tough, but tend to be a bit dim and usnure of themselves around others.
No penalty to other scores, but using methods #1 and #2 for stats will keep personality scores low anyway, usually.

Half-giants tend to vary their ethics over time, based off their friend's actions, but this is an RP issue, and their basic morals don't change like this, ie a good halfgiant never becomes Evil, unless it concissuly chooses to do so, like other folk, or due ot insanity/magic etc.

Equipment:
most human-sized armour cannot be used by halfgiants.
Human sized weapons can be used where appropriate but with a -2 penalty.
Twohanded human melee wepaons can be used 1 handed, but with the usual -2 penalty.
Halfgiants require specially built arms and armour for their size and mass.

Due to their size, in areas where corridors or ceilings are less than 15' high, they suffer a -2 penalty on attacks unless using a Light weapon or unarmed attack. Note many Athasian merchant or noble homes are built to accomodate their halfgiant slaves, but ancient dungeons may not be so big.
Smaller areas worsen this penalty, see "Squeezing" page 292 of 4th ed PHB

Gear made for a halfgiant costs 10 times what it does for a human and gives the usual bonuses, though being Large sized, their weapons will have greater damage, as per rules for larger weapons.
Typically many free halfgiants are only armed with a large greatclub or large spear, due to the cost.
However, those wealthy enough to have halfgiant guards and slaves usually go to the trouble of suitably equipping them to get best use from them.
Most halfgiant guards have hide or leather armour, and a large morningstar, or large spear, or a heavy shield and large battleaxe or large mace.

(note, double the cost for large creatures, as is often given in 3rd ed, is not sufficient, as a half giant has about 10 times the mass of a man! thus, sheer volume, rarity of suitable craftsmen etc, makes it expensive ot get gear).

They also use 10 times as much water as a human, however, they can carry 10 times the weight of equipment and provisions than ordinary folk can.
Their gear weighs x10 normal.

Half-giants tend to be around 10' to 12' tall, but extremely muscular, and with dark tan to brown skins.
They tend ot take on the habits of those around them, although socially a bit awkward, halfgiants make lasting friendships and are rarely decietful or cowardly. They favour the fighter class, rarely they maybe clerics.

There are halfgiants who live by hunting, and would thus be suitable for the "Archer" Ranger using javelins or slings, rarely bows, but very few though, have the necessary dexterity and wits to be a Two-Blade Ranger.

When later Player's Handboks are relased, halfgiants would also be good barbarians, psychic warriors or even psions..

that seem ok?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am still not sure if you should do negative ability score modifiers in 4E or not, and how they are balanced as a whole.

I am pretty convinced that a +6 bonus to any ability score is just too much.

Stick to a +2 Str and +2 Con. This way, you can also avoid all the level adjustment stuff (especially since I am not sure if it should be introduced in 4E, or how it should be introduced...)

If you want an even higher strength, consider creating a racial paragon path (similar to the Warforged ones, or Kamikaze Midgets Planetouched), and increase the Strength and Con there.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Well I have to disagree I'm afraid, as although I know 4th ed is not simulationist...halfgiants just have to be extremely strong and tough, and a bit dumb, versus normal folk

if the thought of a halfgiant smushing you with a greatclub isn't scary...there's something wrong.

The real balances for halfgiants in Dark Sun were that:

a) they were easy to charm or fear, and psionics are common, thus, a halfgiant could and sometimes did slaughter their own party or were scared out of fighting, lol.

b) they used up more water, which is precious.

c) they had limited intelligence and wisdom. Although 2nd ed didn't have "skills" as 3rd ed did (gah, proficiencies, what a pain!), social skills/ability were important in my Dark Sun games, and halfgiants were lousy at that stuff...which could get your character dead


You cannot have a 10' tall, musclebound, not very bright brute just getting +2 Str and Con, it doesn't add up, I'm afraid :/

Halfgiants are a core, important race in Dark Sun, so they need a conversion.
After playing through KOTS, I want to do a 4th ed Dark Sun campaign

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

updated and edited

 

[TimeOut]

I am still not sure if you should do negative ability score modifiers in 4E or not, and how they are balanced as a whole.

You shouldn't. One of the design goals was to eliminate racial ability modifiers, so that races are no longer truly limiting the available class choices.

 

[Ginnel]

I think you should think again about the +4's no other player class or suggested player class from the MM (even minotaurs) has a +4 which I can only think is for an obvious reason, its unbalancing, the only way to get an additional increase over a +2 from racial stats and from level increases is to choose the demigod epic destiny?

maybe have an enounter power with gives +2 to hit/+4 to damage on a melee attack instead? and either add in a fortitude save or maybe add con modifier to hp at first level, or add con modifier to healing surges, or any combination of the above to reflex their toughness.

 

[Ondo]

The new version seems fairly reasonable, though different enough it would be difficult to be sure if it is balanced.

If you want to add more negative traits to balance out more positive ones, I had a few ideas.

You could give it a flat -1 or -2 to all attack rolls. That'd be a pretty serious disadvantage, but it'd do a lot to reduce the power of high stat mods. Also, Large creatures in 3rd edition got a -1 to all attacks, so it's easy to justify.

Likewise, a -1 or -2 to AC for being a large target could work. Maybe also to Reflex?

One way to make them "not very bright" without a stat penalty would be to say they only get +2 or +3 from training in a skill, instead of +5. I don't think I like that though - it's probably not a good idea to make them suck at skill challenges, though it might fit the flavor you want.

 

[Leatherhead]

That is going to be problematic balance wise no matter how you slice it. They are overpowered in open areas and underpowered in cramped dungeons. That does not make them balanced, just situational, and PCs being situational is something 4E is trying to break.

I know you "hate" the XPH half-giants, but those would be perfectly balanced as a PC race for 4E. Heck, even minotaurs were shrank for 4E.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Leatherhead,
well I see the 4th ed Minotaur as being basically same as a Kyrnn Imperial Minotaur, who I loved, have had minotaurs as a PC race i my games for ages

My homebrew minotaurs are just larger than humans but not Large sized, gave them an ECL +2 for 3rd ed, +6 Str, +2 Con, bonus versus Maze and to Track/Survival and axes/greatswords were racial weapons. Cannot wear helms unless specially made for them (10% chance of helm fitting them).

Kind of a viking like race tending to chaotic good, most were fighters/barbarians or monks (backstory had them being the creators of the most popular unarmed martial art style, due ot being enslaved, learning unarmed fighting to free selves etc).


Halfgiants HAVE to be large sized for DS or...they are not halfgiants any more.
Big, dumb, hit hard, tough but usually weak vs mental attacks (common in Dark Sun) they aren't very smart (maximum 15 Int/wis iirc in 2nd ed, humans could hve 20 Int/Wis due to DS using 5d4 for stats)...that's way they are.

So we have to think around that design, or we lose what they are

Would a penalty on Will saves be ok? thus no limit on class, but reflect that they are meant ot be more easily fooled etc. Or as has been suggested on WOTC boards, a Maximum limit on Wis/Int/Cha? like 15?

I don't think you cna really have a Large creature with only +2 Str!

Ginnel,
hm Con modifier could be cool.

 

[TimeOut]

I am not very fond of direct penalties to stats. A attribute limit is also truly a relict of the past (level cap).

Maybe give them +2 Str, +2 Con; +2 Fortitude defense and a Encounter power with the stance keyword?

Something like that:
Half-giant Combat Rage
You enter the same mindless combat rage that your ancestors are feared for.
Encounter * Stance
Minor Action - Personal
Effect: You gain a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls that use your Strength modifier. You gain a -2 penalty to Will defense.