How to make half-giants for 4th ed, as no ECL?

[generalhenry]

the more I think about it the less I object to them being large.

large has fewer implications in 4E

The main reason large is kept from PCs is so they fit into dungeons, but that's not nearly as much of an issue in dark sun.



I still think ECLs are a very bad idea, and that stats should be limited to two +2 bonuses.

a large maul with 20 str is plenty scary imo.

 

[monboesen]

OK, the half giant needs to be stupider than other races and this should translate into a game mechanics based penalty. How about letting stupid = less potential to learn.

Then remove access to one at will and the highest level encounter and utility power from the half giant character (i.e. at level 1 a half giant will have one at will and one level 1 daily power, at level 10 a half giant will have one at will power, two encounter powers of level 1 and 3, three daily powers of level 1, 5 and 9 and two utility powers of level 2 and 6).

This is a harsh penalty, but his basic attacks will be as good or better than many other characters at will powers, due to strength and size advantage.


If you also want half giants to be more vulnerable to mind control stick them a -5 penalty on saves vs. mind controlling effects.

 

[generalhenry]

No races have penalties or ECLs or anything of the like.
But I think half giant still fits.

+2 str +2 con
Large
and an encounter power.


Sure we could break the design constraints of 4E, but I don't think we need to.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Generalhenry,
aye, no more worry of the "death grapple by large beastie"


Monboesen,
a direct penalty to Defence would be wrong, but they do have limits on the max, ie you never get genius half giants (unless they put all their stat points itno Int/wis, which is fine by me).

bad reflex and will defences are a serious risk, which is a good penalty itself.
That's why I don't mind +4str/+4con and -2 dex/int/wis/cha, or some such.

In the 2nd Edition original boxed set rules, a halfgiant's max stats, after racial adjustments adjustments (and the fact base stats for everyone were up to 20, not 18!!), were:
S24 D15 C22 I13 W15 Cha15
If you lowered it to a base 18 for stats as maximum roll, max for stats as normal 2nd ed AD&D it would be
S22 D13 C20 I11 W13 Cha13

For racial bonuses in 2nd Ed they had S +4 C +2 In -2 W -2 Cha -2, but the racial max limits of course, clamped those down.

They also got double hit points *dice rolls* (not Con). Guess that was done by designers as 2nd ed was crap for working out high Con and large creatures?

In Dark Sun, since every PC has a WIld Talent (thus any bugger could have a fear, charm hold type power), and common enemies are Templars (who like mind affecting powers as dead slaves/criminals aren't as useful as live captives), belgoi (dominate and suck you dry, ick!), etc...it makes halfgiants good fun, but vulnerable.

You maybe an ass kicker but Joe Shmo could make you run away with telepathy, lol.

IMHO, for 4th, you don't really want any stat lowered below 15 max to start with, so you can play any class, if you wish, 15 *is* fine starting stat for any class.
I have no objection to a halfgiant playing a preserver (wizard)...rare oddities happen, why not! PCs = heroic oddities
Most halfgiants though are pretty thick, but friendly.


Hm, half the abilities sounds good....except it makes non-melee characters crap :/
But is that actually BAD? because a half giant clerics telepaths etc are rare and usually not so good...but the fact they can still kick your ass with a club does kind of maybe make up for it?

Hm, what about...

HALF GIANT
Large, Reach 2
+4 Str/Con, -2 Dex/int/Wis/Cha (or -2 on two scores, and -4 on two?)

Con modifier bonus to starting hitpoints. (meant to be very tough)

halfgiants get a racial at will, something like "Flattening Smash", using a melee attack, they do 1[W] damage + Strength modifier VS AC, Secondary vs Fort or be knocked prone for Medium or smaller creatures.
(that gives them a very logical power IMHO, and works in with losing 1 at will so they keep 2 at wills, can't use this as ONLY at will in case character uses ranged weapons etc?)

Halfgiants gain only 1 at will power, and lose highest level encounter and utilty power.

?

 

[generalhenry]

Well if we're gonna break 4E design constraints

the reach is implied, and the high con score will make them plenty tough.

HALF GIANT
Large
+4 Str/Con, -2 Dex/int/Wis/Cha (or -2 on two scores, and -4 on two?)

Flattening Smash at will
melee
1[W] damage + Strength modifier VS AC
Secondary vs Fort or be knocked prone for Medium or smaller creatures.

Halfgiants gain only 1 at will power

 

[StarFyre]

our half giant

I agree that the design constraints of 4E are idiotic for some settings.

My campaign, due to the characters my players have, needs massive house rules and for how they like to try different things..4E's constraints don't work for us...so I tossed em all.

Guess what? It really doesn't matter that much. Yes, you could have 1 character that does more damage than others. However, if you design him intelligently (and the DM is experienced, and the players aren't whiners that "how come I can't do the exact same damage as him, etc) it's not a problem.

We had a half giant in our campaign....

THe way we changed the 3.X version (and will use him now in 4E):

+6 or +8 str (we changed this back and forth since it didn't make a huge difference....and weren't sure what to keep). +4 con.
weapons/armour cost 4X more... int/wis/cha -2 each... more susceptible to mental effects. -4 dex

2X HP/level.

need 3-4x the amount of water/day.

The cost of stuff essentially leaves them out of having armour in many campaigns, espec low level.

the feat selection we made up...this ws a hard one and i think this is the biggest problem for 4E..feats/powers that fit the theme and are fun to use.

Unstoppable could be one, a great cleave (we did this one..where they are so strong, if the swing a sword around them...anything in the way WILL get sliced)...

Alignment alteration....people really underestimated this. In a very heavy RP styled campaign, the alignment shift really made Half giants, who are acted properly, one of the hardest characters to roleplay/act.

We kept this with a slight change due to our custom, 'realistic' alignment system.

Overall..it worked very well.

Some stuff to take note:

* at low levels, the high cost make it prohibitive, so he ends up using makeshift, even enemies, as weapons (or basic swords, iron rods, etc). and no armour

* the high HP are offset by the fact that he gets beaten on farely easily.

* the roleplaying with them are awesome IF inn the hands of a good actor.

* he saved the party's butt a lot, but also needed to be saved alot due to situations made for regular people that he got stuck in OR after being beaten on a lot due to lack of armour.

* by level 5-7..it started to even out in that, even though he did more damage, everyone had cool, fun powers, so even players who were reserved about it..didn't care..they had fun interacting with him.

I say, with experience, make it how YOU want it to be. Nothing else really mattes. Adjust if needed, and have fun.

Sanjay

 

[runnerXL]

Doesn't the Enchant Magic Item ritual also allow you to resize existing magic items? This would remove the penalties of expensive armour/weapons as soon as you found something you could use and get your parties wizard to fix it up for you. I guess you could house rule this out too though

 

[shinmizu]

Well take a look at the MM and the PHB. It's not that hard for a human to have higher strength than a giant. Hill giants have a mere 21 str.

Just looked through the PHB, DMG, and MM last night before heading to sleep. That *is* a bit silly and counterintuitive, even within the framework of the 4e system.

However that does NOT mean they're just as 'strong'

A giant uses can carry more and can use larger weapons for higher damage.

I found the rules for weapon damage increase in conjunction with size increase (but they feel extremely weak to me... a 1d8 going to 2d4 only increases the average damage by 0.5, and leaves the max unchanged, which doesn't seem right), but I couldn't find anything relating to size modifying carrying capacity. It looks like a 21 str halfling, a 21 str human, and a 21 str hill giant all have the same capacity (10/20/50 * str). Until I can find any capacity rules, that's definitely something I'd house rule. I'll probably also modify the damage progression based on size. (And I miss the extra sizes, too. I might just wait and see how Upper_Krust goes with his 4e modification of the immortals handbook--if it doesn't take another four or five years.)

If I put in some carrying capacity changes and modified weapon damage progression, I guess a 21 str won't be such a problem... they'll just have flabby, underdeveloped musculature given their size. (After all, hill giants usually look pretty slovenly.)

Still not sure about half-giants, though. They're really supposed to be BAMFs in the physical sense. I can't see a half-giant from Athas not mopping the floor with a standard setting hill giant or two. And a full Athasian giant...

 

[Belorin]

A simple question, how large are half-giants? 8'? 9'? 10'?
I never played DS and this thread got me curious.

Bel

 

[monboesen]

Based on your proposal my take would be the following:

HALF GIANT
Racial Traits
Average Height: 9 ft. – 11 ft.
Average Weight: 1000–1200 lb.
Ability Scores: +4 Strength, +4 Constitution
Size: Large
Reach: 2
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Sweeping Strike: You can use sweeping strike as an encounter power
Tough: Half Giants gain the Toughness feat as a bonus feat
Slow-witted: Half Giants gain only one class at will power and lose access to their highest level encounter and utility power.
Gullible: Half Giants suffer a -5 penalty on saving throws vs. mind control effects and powers.


Sweeping Strike (standard; encounter) Weapon
The half giant makes an attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.



And here is an example Half giant 1st level fighter. Tough and hard hitting. But vulnerable to magical attacks, especially ongoing mind control.


Half Giant Fighter 1

Str 20 (+5), Con 20 (+5), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 10 (+0)
HP: 40, Bloodied 20, Healing surge 10, Surges 14
AC: 17, Fort: 17, Refl: 11, Will: 11

Skills
Athletics +10
Endurance +10
Intimidate +5

Feats
Potent challenge (+5 damage on attacks granted by combat challenge)

Basic Melee Attack: Maul +8, Damage 2d8+5, Reach 2.
Basic Ranged Attack: Javelin +8, Damage 1d8+5

At-Will powers (*Note that this power can be retrained once the half giant gets the Hammer Rythm feat)
Reaping Strike: Maul +8, Damage 2d8+5, 5 damage on a miss. Reach 2.

Encounter Powers
Flattening Smash: Maul +8, Damage 2d8+5, two attacks, if hit target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone. Reach 2.

Daily Power
Brute Strike: Maul +8, Damage 6d8+5, Miss: Power not used. Reach 2.



If the changing alignment thingie is important I would use the following.

Moody: Half giants are prone to unpredictable mood swings. After each extended rest roll 1d6, on a 1 the giants alignment moves one step towards Chaotic Evil, on a 2-5 it stays unchanged and on a 6 it moves one step towards Lawful Good (scale: Chaotic Evil Evil Unaligned Good Lawful Good).