How to play music, forge a sword and so on

[ra-punzel72]

I love the simplicity that comes with 4e compared to 3.5! So I do not want to add more rules and more skills. But in our group we miss deeply the abilities to make music, paint a nice picture (yes, we have two correlon believers in our group!) or forge sword.

Because we do not want to penalize players for good roleplaying with adding more skills (because that would mean that you have to take more training feats) we tried some things. Nothing worked out.

We tried to use attributs only. Since attributs are never so high like a trained skill it penalizes good role players.

We tried mixing two skill and then halve the result. The present DM did think about mixing acrobatic with diplomacy to beautify a shrine with some symbols. Acrobatic represents the ability to draw steady, diplomacy is what you want to achieve. Did not work out since a highly skilled artist has not to be acrobatic at all.

So what ideas do you have?
At the moment I think about taking the defenses into some kind of formula since the defenses take the higher of two values in account which seems to be fair.

Most important for us is to encourage role playing and so giving players a simple method to do whatever they think of. We do not want to penalize a good player with investing in more skills or simliar things.


Any ideas?

 

[DEFCON 1]

The first question I have is wondering why your party feels the need to determine how "good" a work of art is? Painting pictures or forging swords can just be roleplayed out without needing to roll anything to determine success. What are you hoping to accomplish by adding rolls to these events?

Now if there's some roleplay event which might involve the singing of a song or something... then just run a skill challenge for it. If a party member is trying to influence a king or something by singing some epic song... then use skills like Diplomacy, History, Streetwise, Religion etc. as part of the challenge to see how well the song was received. You don't need to have a Perform check specifically.

 

[Fede]

Give every character an extra skill depending on his background. A fighter that used to be a blacksmith could have a "smithy" skill, a cleric of corellon could have a "singing" or "painting" skill, etc. Use the DCs on page 42 of the DMG.
In this way classes work the same as before balance-wise, but every one has at least one "professional" skill. To avoid the problem of having to pay feats for additional skill, you can make the acquisition of new professional skills story based: a character starts with one, depending on his background. Then, when he has a chance to learn a new one, he simply spends time with an expert of the subject (basically he works as an apprentice with a master painter\crafter\blacksmith whatever) and adds the skill to his character.

This is my advice if you absolutely need skills for this kind of thing. What i do is to avoid rolling for stuff like this, i simply let a character with a blacksmith background forge what he wants if he has the time\materials\access to the necessary tools, etc.

 

[Nytmare]

"I want to paint a picture."
"Tell us what you paint."
"I want to paint a really nice picture of the Queen so that I can give it to the royal family as a token of my fealty."

or

"I'm still learning how to paint really, so it shows promise, but it's obviously very amateurish. I think that Correlon would be pleased however."

or

"I try to paint a picture of our group, but I don't think it really comes out right. When it's done people always confuse the Eladrin for the Dragonborn, and everyone assumes that Lady Marianne is a man."

==========================

"I want to forge a sword! I'm a sword making guy and I like to make swords."
"What kind of sword do you want to make?"
"I want it to be a huge greatsword and it's awesome and all black and covered in skulls."
"Ok, it ends up costing you about the same amount in raw materials that a new greatsword would cost, and after a couple of days of hammering and toiling over the blacksmith's forge you make a totally awesome black greatsword that's covered in skulls."

 

[ra-punzel72]

The first question I have is wondering why your party feels the need to determine how "good" a work of art is? Painting pictures or forging swords can just be roleplayed out without needing to roll anything to determine success. What are you hoping to accomplish by adding rolls to these events?

My character is devoted to Correlon and seeks to bring beauty through art. It would be very broing for me and all other players if every act of making art would succeed on the same level. And there should be some reactions possible for NPCs that see this art based on how good it was made.

Now if there's some roleplay event which might involve the singing of a song or something... then just run a skill challenge for it. If a party member is trying to influence a king or something by singing some epic song... then use skills like Diplomacy, History, Streetwise, Religion etc. as part of the challenge to see how well the song was received. You don't need to have a Perform check specifically.

This seems to be like roleplaying a fight and making a skill challenge out of it, where intimidate, bluff, heal, acrobatics and so on describe how good the fight was and who did win it.

I like skill challenges but it seems to me that it would be boring for the rest to always see my character singing or painting in a skill challenge. And I don't see a possiblity to involve all others. In fact I see singing ONE "skill" that could be used in a skill challenge.

Thx for you input anyway but I don't like to make a skill challenge out if it or just succeed every time.

Example: at one point my character prepared for entering a shrine of Correlon by painting symbols of magic on his leather armor with a special magic chalk that does not go away for one week. This is no skill challenge. But there has to be some measurments how good he did it since he has to live with it for one week. Is it beautiful? Does it charm Correlon? Does it affect the reactios of the other believers?

 

[Garthanos]

I like the freebie 1 professional skill option presented... for a nobleman it might just be a hobby but for others it was likely the profession of there parents. Personally, Also professional skills being purchased with time and money (up to ones wisdom or intelligence in number?) would be fine. The Celts considered it a heroic ideal to be able to profess many capabilities.

 

[ra-punzel72]

"I want to forge a sword! I'm a sword making guy and I like to make swords."
"What kind of sword do you want to make?"
"I want it to be a huge greatsword and it's awesome and all black and covered in skulls."
"Ok, it ends up costing you about the same amount in raw materials that a new greatsword would cost, and after a couple of days of hammering and toiling over the blacksmith's forge you make a totally awesome black greatsword that's covered in skulls."

This will fit in any cinematic system very well. But D&D never was and is still not a cinematic system.

 

[ra-punzel72]

This seems quite interes

I like the freebie 1 professional skill option presented... for a nobleman it might just be a hobby but for others it was likely the profession of there parents. Personally, Also professional skills being purchased with time and money (up to ones wisdom or intelligence in number?) would be fine. The Celts considered it a heroic ideal to be able to profess many capabilities.

thx for that idea

I am working on something like this in the moment...one "art" skill and one "craft" skill. One skill you get for free, the other would need a skill training feat.

You can learn specialities (like singing, acting, weapon smith) in this skills ingame (no feat...) and these specialities counts then as trained. You can still sing without learning (and it may sound good!) but you will not get that job at the opera. Abilities for these two skills are free to choose from three abilities (similar to defenses), but you are not allowed to choose the same ability for bot skills.

 

[BendBars/LiftGates]

It's the easiest thing in the world, in 4e. Don't make a mechanic out of it. Just make it an untrained skill check.

Want to forge a sword? Let's assume it's an Int-based skill. But it can really be whatever you want. Con, Wis. Who knows? You just make an untrained skill check: 1d20 + 1/2 level + ability modifier.

Add modifiers based on whatever factors seem relevant at the moment. Maybe your DM will give you a +2 to the check because you're a dwarf and your people are expert crafters. Maybe your DM will give you a +5 to the ckeck as if you were trained in the skill because your character was a blacksmith before he took up arms in defense of his village.

 

[ra-punzel72]

It's the easiest thing in the world, in 4e. Don't make a mechanic out of it. Just make it an untrained skill check.

Want to forge a sword? Let's assume it's an Int-based skill. But it can really be whatever you want. Con, Wis. Who knows? You just make an untrained skill check: 1d20 + 1/2 level + ability modifier.

Its not the easiest thing. I play D&D now for over 10 years and one of the most athmosperic killers is to create a rule while gaming.
We did exactly what you described. But then started the discussions: what abiltiy to use for drawing? Dex, because you need a steady hand? No, its Wis, you have to feel it intuitive. For sure not, its Int, all about learning the theorie. The same with forging a sword: I take strength, I need this to hammer. No, you take Con, its all about endurance. Endurance? Heck, this is a skill! Then take int, you had to learn this art and remember ist now.

This is a game killer and in no way easy except you accept everything your players decide.

And you can not simply make a list of abilities you use for differnt tasks..one player wants to use dex, the other int. And this with good reasons (see defenses). So i think my may of two basic skills is much more easy than to make rules while gaming.

But thx anyway for your time and ideas