Li Shenron
Legend
Piratecat said:
Thanks! I will update the thread to discuss more about balance of the details, therefore it definitely fits here better
How to replace the gp/xp cost for item creation?
- Thread starter Li Shenron
- Start date
Thanks! I will update the thread to discuss more about balance of the details, therefore it definitely fits here better
Li Shenron
Legend
Update version and reorganisation!
Let me make an update of all the ideas so far, and put some order in them...
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General rules in the campaign
Free-form experience means that the party levelling up will happen just when appropriate for the campaign, and when the players seem to be ready for the difficulty increase. As such, we won't keep track of XP and everyone would mostly be at the same level. Probably there could still be some differences in level due to level drain / resurrection or other exceptional events.
This general rule will imply to take care at least of the following:
- multiclassing penalties -> dropped, compensation given to races with favored class
- spells with an xp cost -> will require 1day/Xp before they can be cast again
Free-form treasure means that we won't bother much about how much money or equivalent possession the characters have. Since magic equipment will have no cost, it won't matter much for the PC how much gp they get from adventuring, which will have some little pleasant consequences. Treasure will still be found occasionally, but the PC will spend it some other way.
This general rule will imply to take care at least of the following:
- mundane equipment -> at low level PCs still have a budget, later on it's only limited by availablity
- spells with a material/focus component -> will be limited by availability of the component
Permanent magic items
Each PC will carry very few p.m.i. throughout her career, but each item will have more powers than the average D&D magic item. The total gp worth of all these powers in a single character's equipment will be kept track of by the DM to ensure it's in line with the DMG table of equipment value per level. (another option is to use Vow of Powerty as a guideline for this)
An item will improve in time as the owner PC will level up. New powers will be determined randomly by the DM, but they will reflect the owner's behaviour and deeds. For example, a sword owned by a demon hunter may likely become demon-bane, while defeating a red dragon may induce the flaming power on it.
P.m.i. will be priceless in the world: although there could be the rare chance to purchase one, there won't be available for sale.
After coming into possession of a new p.m.i., you usually need to attune to it for a while before being able to use its powers.
Stealing or borrowing a p.m.i can happen, but if it would put the total gp worth of your equipment over your maximum, the item won't attune with you and won't display its powers (or would display reduced powers). Use Magic Device can help using someone else's items without worrying about this.
Item Creation Feats give a PC the ability to improve a p.m.i. by basically choosing which new powers it will develop. Creating a new p.m.i. from scrach will also require some in-game extras, such as a nexus or rare components. Using an ICF for p.m.i. doesn't cost gp or xp.
There won't be p.m.i. which plainly boost an ability score. There will still be tomes to permanently increase ability scores, and their appearance will be mostly story-based.
Consumable magic items
C.m.i. are either single-use or have a limited number of charges, can replicate a spell or otherwise have a unique effect, can be actual objects or otherwise materials which come in doses rather than charges.
They actually keep their market price and can be bought or sold, but since there is accurate bookkeping of PC wealth the main limit is the availability for sale which is to be kept very low.
Item creation feats allow to craft c.m.i. at no gp or xp cost. There is still need for time, suitable conditions (typically a lab of some sort) and ingredients which at least increase the total time required.
A c.m.i. has an expiration time representing the magic vanishing from the item after a while.*
*(How long does a c.m.i. remain active still TBD, maybe 1 week).
Item category rearrangement
Scribe Scroll: same as core. An expired scroll cannot be used to cast the spell but can still be copied into a spellbook.
Brew Potion: includes those wondrous items which are consumable materials such as oils, salves, dusts...
Craft M.Weapons&Armor: also allows some effects from rods and wondrous items to be added to weapons, shields or armors
Craft Wondrous Item: includes some other rods and rings
Craft Wand & Staff: unified to a single category, wands and staves are actually p.m.i with 1 charge per caster level and they recharge at the rate of 1 charge per day; it may be possible to use the feat to store spells in this way into other objects
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At least what's left to decide is about which would be a reasonable expiration time. I want to keep it simple, even fixed is going to be fine (although it may be different for Scrolls vs Potions) or otherwise based on caster level or spell level. More powerful items take a longer time to make, therefore with a fixed expiration time you can have a smaller amount of more powerful items or a larger amount of less powerful ones.
Also, there's still to see if there are open problems that don't come to my mind...
Let me make an update of all the ideas so far, and put some order in them...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
General rules in the campaign
Free-form experience means that the party levelling up will happen just when appropriate for the campaign, and when the players seem to be ready for the difficulty increase. As such, we won't keep track of XP and everyone would mostly be at the same level. Probably there could still be some differences in level due to level drain / resurrection or other exceptional events.
This general rule will imply to take care at least of the following:
- multiclassing penalties -> dropped, compensation given to races with favored class
- spells with an xp cost -> will require 1day/Xp before they can be cast again
Free-form treasure means that we won't bother much about how much money or equivalent possession the characters have. Since magic equipment will have no cost, it won't matter much for the PC how much gp they get from adventuring, which will have some little pleasant consequences. Treasure will still be found occasionally, but the PC will spend it some other way.
This general rule will imply to take care at least of the following:
- mundane equipment -> at low level PCs still have a budget, later on it's only limited by availablity
- spells with a material/focus component -> will be limited by availability of the component
Permanent magic items
Each PC will carry very few p.m.i. throughout her career, but each item will have more powers than the average D&D magic item. The total gp worth of all these powers in a single character's equipment will be kept track of by the DM to ensure it's in line with the DMG table of equipment value per level. (another option is to use Vow of Powerty as a guideline for this)
An item will improve in time as the owner PC will level up. New powers will be determined randomly by the DM, but they will reflect the owner's behaviour and deeds. For example, a sword owned by a demon hunter may likely become demon-bane, while defeating a red dragon may induce the flaming power on it.
P.m.i. will be priceless in the world: although there could be the rare chance to purchase one, there won't be available for sale.
After coming into possession of a new p.m.i., you usually need to attune to it for a while before being able to use its powers.
Stealing or borrowing a p.m.i can happen, but if it would put the total gp worth of your equipment over your maximum, the item won't attune with you and won't display its powers (or would display reduced powers). Use Magic Device can help using someone else's items without worrying about this.
Item Creation Feats give a PC the ability to improve a p.m.i. by basically choosing which new powers it will develop. Creating a new p.m.i. from scrach will also require some in-game extras, such as a nexus or rare components. Using an ICF for p.m.i. doesn't cost gp or xp.
There won't be p.m.i. which plainly boost an ability score. There will still be tomes to permanently increase ability scores, and their appearance will be mostly story-based.
Consumable magic items
C.m.i. are either single-use or have a limited number of charges, can replicate a spell or otherwise have a unique effect, can be actual objects or otherwise materials which come in doses rather than charges.
They actually keep their market price and can be bought or sold, but since there is accurate bookkeping of PC wealth the main limit is the availability for sale which is to be kept very low.
Item creation feats allow to craft c.m.i. at no gp or xp cost. There is still need for time, suitable conditions (typically a lab of some sort) and ingredients which at least increase the total time required.
A c.m.i. has an expiration time representing the magic vanishing from the item after a while.*
*(How long does a c.m.i. remain active still TBD, maybe 1 week).
Item category rearrangement
Scribe Scroll: same as core. An expired scroll cannot be used to cast the spell but can still be copied into a spellbook.
Brew Potion: includes those wondrous items which are consumable materials such as oils, salves, dusts...
Craft M.Weapons&Armor: also allows some effects from rods and wondrous items to be added to weapons, shields or armors
Craft Wondrous Item: includes some other rods and rings
Craft Wand & Staff: unified to a single category, wands and staves are actually p.m.i with 1 charge per caster level and they recharge at the rate of 1 charge per day; it may be possible to use the feat to store spells in this way into other objects
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least what's left to decide is about which would be a reasonable expiration time. I want to keep it simple, even fixed is going to be fine (although it may be different for Scrolls vs Potions) or otherwise based on caster level or spell level. More powerful items take a longer time to make, therefore with a fixed expiration time you can have a smaller amount of more powerful items or a larger amount of less powerful ones.
Also, there's still to see if there are open problems that don't come to my mind...
Just base the number of days on the cost in the DMG. Since you're not using the costs, it's no big deal. Maybe a c.m.i. lasts for a number of days or weeks equal to 1/25 the base cost (so all those calculations for the xp spent, in the existing system, doesn't go to waste . . .).
So, a Potion that costs 250gp lasts for 10 days (if you run a campaign where things are changing rapidly) or 10 weeks (if characters take significant breaks between adventures).
Simple.
For a bit of complexity you could add that a Potion (for example--this could work for other items, somehow) gets stronger for a while as it "ages," peaks at a certain effectiveness for a few days, and then gets weaker for a while as its essence begins to dwindle away. This adds work to the DM's already-busy life, but it could be reason for players to take this bottle off the shelf rather than that one.
Dave
Li Shenron
Legend
That would be a good guideline. I am not sure however if the duration should actually be longer for the more powerful potions/scrolls or or the less powerful ones...
Thinking that a character is in a way brewing/scribing for free, the limitation on how much stuff he has at a time is the result of (1) how much time does it take to make the item and (2) how long does the item last.
Let me take some time to think about it...
For example, let's consider only scrolls for now, min market price and time required to scribe:
0th 12.5gp 1 day
1st 25gp 1 day
2nd 150gp 1 day
3rd 375gp 1 day
4th 700gp 1 day
5th 1125gp 2 days
6th 1650gp 2 days
7th 2275gp 3 days
8th 3000gp 3 days
9th 3825gp 4 days
So if a character scribes all the time (assuming she's not adventuring), and if we don't allow to scribe more spells to the same scroll, she can for example scribe all 4th level spells. If duration is 28 days she is going to have up to 28 4th lv spell scrolls at most.
Would she choose to scribe only 1st lv spells (duration 1 day), she would have only 1 scroll at a time.
Durations and max spells at a time would be like this:
0th ~1 day max 1
1st 1 day max 1
2nd 6 days max 6
3rd 15 days max 15
4th 28 days max 28
5th 45 days max 23
6th 66 days max 33
7th 91 days max 31
8th 120 days max 40
9th 153 days max 39
this makes higher level spells much more advantageous to be scribed.
If I used a fixed expiration time, the situation would be slightly better but not completely, for example if all scrolls lasted 12 days (just to make it a nice number), this would be the max number of scrolls per level:
max 12 if all spells are of levels 0th-4th
max 6 if all spells are of levels 5th-6th
max 4 if all spells are of levels 7th-8th
max 3 if all spells are of level 9th
What do you think? Is the number too low? Keep in mind that scribing is free otherwise
What may not be nice is that there's no difference which caster level you are except that scribing time may be more if you set CL to max.
Thinking that a character is in a way brewing/scribing for free, the limitation on how much stuff he has at a time is the result of (1) how much time does it take to make the item and (2) how long does the item last.
Let me take some time to think about it...
For example, let's consider only scrolls for now, min market price and time required to scribe:
0th 12.5gp 1 day
1st 25gp 1 day
2nd 150gp 1 day
3rd 375gp 1 day
4th 700gp 1 day
5th 1125gp 2 days
6th 1650gp 2 days
7th 2275gp 3 days
8th 3000gp 3 days
9th 3825gp 4 days
So if a character scribes all the time (assuming she's not adventuring), and if we don't allow to scribe more spells to the same scroll, she can for example scribe all 4th level spells. If duration is 28 days she is going to have up to 28 4th lv spell scrolls at most.
Would she choose to scribe only 1st lv spells (duration 1 day), she would have only 1 scroll at a time.
Durations and max spells at a time would be like this:
0th ~1 day max 1
1st 1 day max 1
2nd 6 days max 6
3rd 15 days max 15
4th 28 days max 28
5th 45 days max 23
6th 66 days max 33
7th 91 days max 31
8th 120 days max 40
9th 153 days max 39
this makes higher level spells much more advantageous to be scribed.
If I used a fixed expiration time, the situation would be slightly better but not completely, for example if all scrolls lasted 12 days (just to make it a nice number), this would be the max number of scrolls per level:
max 12 if all spells are of levels 0th-4th
max 6 if all spells are of levels 5th-6th
max 4 if all spells are of levels 7th-8th
max 3 if all spells are of level 9th
What do you think? Is the number too low? Keep in mind that scribing is free otherwise
What may not be nice is that there's no difference which caster level you are except that scribing time may be more if you set CL to max.
