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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3346031" data-attributes="member: 2011">Got it right?How is a Tumble opposed check different than a Spot/Hide opposed check to notice a concealed and hiding character so that you can attack? The opposed check is not the attack, it is the ability to gain an attack. The "target" argument does not have any bearing on the discusion.Think of it instead of "does the moving character lower his guard?" and more of "can the attacking character react quickly enough at the moving character to strike at him?". In fact, the very concept of a Tumbling character avoiding an AoO sounds like an oxymoron. If he is flipping and tumbling, how can he NOT be temporarily looking away / presenting his back to his opponent, etc.? Think of a simple roll or a back flip or any gymnastic maneuver. None of these have a gymnast looking in one direction the entire time, so he should lose sight of his attacker. The fact that WotC sold us all on this non-plausible concept when 3E first came out is amazing. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> For Tumble Through in an opposed check system, it would be to see if you get through the opponent's square, not an attack. There are several opposed checks (e.g. Spot / Hide) in the game which are not attacks.There are also times in the game when you sometimes make an opposed check for a function, but other times do not. Overrun is one of these. If the opponent avoids, there is no opposed check.I think thou dost protest too much.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Yours sounds more like an "We've done it this way since 3E, so we should not change it" argument, than a which mechanic is the best one type of argument.Approaching this from a slightly different direction:Which function is more useful and powerful: Tumble or Overrun?1) Tumble has four functions Avoiding AoOs, Moving Through Square, Lowering damage from a fall, and Entertaining an Audience, Overurn has two functions Knocking an Opponent Down and Moving Through Square: Advantage Tumble2) Tumble has no defense, Overrun can be defended against: Advantage Tumble3) Tumble ranks can eventually be high enough that its most three useful functions are 100% automatic, Overurn is almost never automatic (i..e Str / Size of the attacker beats the Str or Dex / Size of the defender by 19): Advantage Tumble4) Tumble requires no feats, Overrun requires the Improved Overrun feat in order to ensure that the Knockdown function can be forced to be attempted: Advantage Tumble5) Tumble does not use up an attack action, the Knockdown function of Overrun uses up an attack action: Advantage Tumble6) Tumble can avoid the AoO, Overun always has an AoO (without a feat): Advantage Tumble7) Tumble has no negative consequences outside of the AoO, the Knockdown function of Overrun can result in the attacker being knocked prone: Advantage Tumble8) As levels increase, Tumble can be improved upon by 100%, making it easier to use at higher level than at lower levels, Overrun has only a few ways to improve it (improving Strength or Size, typically through magic which at best improves it by 40%) and opponents start getting strong, larger, and faster which means it works less often at higher levels than it does at lower levels: Advantage Tumble9) Tumble can be done multiple times per round, Overrun can be done once per round: Advantage Tumble10) Tumble can be done against any opponent, Overrun can only be done against opponents one size larger through smaller than the attacker: Advantage Tumble1) Tumble requires a DC roll for all of its functions, Overrun requires an opposed roll for one function and none for the other: Advantage Overrun2) Tumble is part of movement, lowering movement by 5 per square tumbled through, Overrun takes normal movement: Advantage Overrun3) Tumble requires taking skill ranks, Overrun has no such requirements: Advantage Overrun4) Tumble can only be done if the characters speed has not been reduced, Overrun can be done under those conditions: Advantage OverrunSo, 10 advantages for Tumble, 4 advantages for Overrun.Or put another way, how often do PCs use Overrun at high level and how often do they use Tumble?</blockquote>

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