D&D 5E How to tear a pc's arm off?

[adam_antio]

Our 6th level tiefling necromancer finally became an actual Lich, breaking a deal with a demon prince (our version of graz'zt) to periodically have an Imprisonment spell cast on a victim until he will be able to do it by himself.

Now, with all the resistances immunities that come with being a Lich, I'm looking for ways to harm him. We're all happy and good that he's basically untouchable, but for example, they're now targeting a young silver dragon that fought undeads for the last few decades, and when the time comes, I was thinking about how can the dragon make a stand against the Lich. It came to me that a smart dragon would try to (innately) cast silence and tear/chew off hands and arms to disrupt a Lich's spellcasting.

But can he do it, considering that the lich is immune to non magical weapons? And if he can, how? What sort of rolls should we make?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

by the rules you can't... now if your group is fine with playing fast and loose, just do it...

 

[Wrathamon]

considering he let a 6th lvl PC become a lich ... they are already playing "fast & loose".

Bite his hand off ... then give him the Hand of Vecna later

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Normally I'd say you can cut off a limb if the target is completely incapacitated, you arent under stress (in middle of combat), and they are at 0HP. If you could kill the target, you can maim them instead as you see fit.

I'm assuming you are the DM? You might want to talk with the player that he's now outside the scope of what is acceptable for a PC in terms of power levels, and see what he wants to do. Retire the character as an NPC villain, have another adventure or so before returning to life as a regular necromancer after the effect wears off, etc.

As the DM, you essentially can "win" at any time. A swarm of solars pop up, a wyrm good dragon, what have you. If you want some kind of combat mechanic for the dragon, here's one.

Action "Righty bite-y, lefty lose-y" The dragon may only use this action against a creature grappled at the start of it's turn. The target suffers damage equal to the dragon's bite attack and must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to the dragon's breath weapon. If successful, the dragon may sever an arm or leg on the target. If the bite damage reduces the target to 0HP, the dragon my instead kill the target by biting it's head off.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now, with all the resistances immunities that come with being a Lich, I'm looking for ways to harm him. We're all happy and good that he's basically untouchable, but for example, they're now targeting a young silver dragon that fought undeads for the last few decades, and when the time comes, I was thinking about how can the dragon make a stand against the Lich. It came to me that a smart dragon would try to (innately) cast silence and tear/chew off hands and arms to disrupt a Lich's spellcasting.

But can he do it, considering that the lich is immune to non magical weapons? And if he can, how? What sort of rolls should we make?

This is not intrinsically different from what happens if you're fighting a werebear or a Rakshasa at low levels without a magic weapon. The key issue of course is that if you're running the silver dragon as vanilla MM, he doesn't have nearly as many options as a PC does: no magic items, no spells, no allies, no poison. A "smart" dragon in that case will either run away to acquire more capabilities, or else zero in on things he can damage. That means either hit-and-run attacks on the lich with his breath weapon (IIRC liches aren't resistant to cold, right?), or focusing on other party members (e.g. snatch and grab).

I suspect running away for now is the smart play. Come back when the party is sleeping and grapple a PC out of his sleeping bag instead. Once the lich PC is bereft of allies he'll be much easier prey.

 

[Sunseeker]

You basically need to develop some kind of system for called shots and that depends greatly on what the character is doing with their hands.

If you're planning to have the dragon bite off the lich's hands, I would surmise it should go as follows:

Grapple with bite, followed by an a str v. con check.

Before you make the attack, get the player to establish how they are using their hands to spell cast. Are they holding them still while wigging their fingers? Lower DC on grapple. Are they waving their arms about in the air madly? Higher DC on grapple.

Assuming you're using the stat block from the 5E MM, you have a MASSIVELY overpowered party member. He will obliterate a young silver dragon. He doesn't even need the party to do this. Young dragons also lack legendary actions and legendary resistences. All your lich need do is cast Power Word kill and your dragon is dead, if miraculously that fails, backup: dominate monster, finger of death, disintegrate.

If you are not using the lich statistics from the book, please do say so. Otherwise what you have on your hands isn't a fight and there will be no valiant last stand. You'll have a massacre and you'll have a party that will very rapidly get bored as the lich steamrolls the next 10 levels of your game.

(IIRC liches aren't resistant to cold, right?)

They have resist, but not immunity.

I suspect running away for now is the smart play. Come back when the party is sleeping and grapple a PC out of his sleeping bag instead. Once the lich PC is bereft of allies he'll be much easier prey.

I agree. A stock 5e MM young silver dragon is no match for a full-bore lich. Even an ancient silver dragon would have some difficulty.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If you are not using the lich statistics from the book, please do say so. Otherwise what you have on your hands isn't a fight and there will be no valiant last stand. You'll have a massacre and you'll have a party that will very rapidly get bored as the lich steamrolls the next 10 levels of your game.

It's not so bad. You can essentially just skip those levels to get to the interesting part of the game. If you start throwing 18th level threats at the party now, they'll struggle like mad to survive but if they survive due to smart tactics and/or help from the lich, they will quickly level up to the point where those threats become manageable. 5E levelling is really fast compared to AD&D--you basically hit 20th level around the time an AD&D character would be hitting 10th.

A good guideline in my experience is that any fight where there are at least as many CR 5-10 monsters are there are level 8-12 level PCs will be an entertaining fight. Groups of Fire Giants are fun, and so are vampires and beholders.

 

[adam_antio]

He gained a lich's resistances and immunities, true sight, prof in con saves, plus a rework of its special attacks, but otherwise he's still a (untouchable) 6th level necromancer.

The dragon first helped them empyting a wraith's fortress crawling with undeads, but during this deed the wizard became a lich (long story) and at the end he threatened to attack the dragon if he stayed any longer in their newly conquered territories. It was all good rp, and then the dragon stood off, saying something like "you're right, I'm leaving your home, but we're neighbours, and I'm watching you".

Now the lich is manipulating the other not-so-evil party members and they seem inclined to hunt down the dragon. I was wondering what a smart dragon would do. He obviously will ask help from a certain arctic druid (to cast elemental bane and whatnot), but what if he's caught alone? No chance to rip the lich's arms off?

 

[MG.0]

Not really answering your question, but as the DM you can do anything you like, up to and including ripping a character's arm off.

I don't let players play "monsters". The game doesn't really handle it well.

Liches are supposed to be supreme spellcasters, and level 6 is nowhere close...even 20 is pushing it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now the lich is manipulating the other not-so-evil party members and they seem inclined to hunt down the dragon. I was wondering what a smart dragon would do. He obviously will ask help from a certain arctic druid (to cast elemental bane and whatnot), but what if he's caught alone? No chance to rip the lich's arms off?

If I were DMing then no, no chance to rip its arms off. Maiming is both incompatible with (vanilla) 5E rules, and is unfun for players. Obviously that doesn't apply if you're already using permanent maiming rules ("Lasting Injury" from the DMG or your own homebrew).

Furthermore, the dragon doesn't have magic weapons. That doesn't mean he's helpless against a lich--he can still knock the lich off a cliff, for example, which separates him from the party; then he can strafe the lich to death at his leisure later, using his breath weapon. But ripping him arm off would be physically impossible, and the dragon would know that, at least if it is familiar with the lich's new abilities.

This is one reason why all my dragons have Dragon Sorcerer levels. Vanilla 5E dragons are really limited in options and kind of uninteresting, IMHO.