How to un-cheese D&D?

[EricNoah]

The main piece of cheese I remove from my games these days is stat boosters. I only allow one per PC at most.

 

[el-remmen]

I have been running 3.x games with the cut cheese (hehehe ) for seven years now with no problems.

I wish I could give you easy guidelines to follow, but for me it has been about eye-balling cutting and modifying encounters.

I cut something like 90% of all magical items in published adventures and replace cheesed out opponents with something that fits my ideals better. I still use things like templates, but they are exceptional and rare creatures, perhaps met one or three times all campaign.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You do realize, that by limiting the amount of magic items available, you skew the game in favor of full casters quite dramatically, right?

Fighters NEED magic items. Casters just like their magic items.

Depends on the opposition. Against some spellcasters, you are correct; most fighters cannot see invisible or fly. The RIGHT magic items boost the fighter's effectiveness tenfold or more in such a case, whereas a smart caster will have one or two means of compensating.

Against melee brutes, magic items just let the fighter do what he does a bit better. He's not crippled without them, he'll just take a bit more damage during the fight. If the party is interested in cooperation and uses their spells to benefit each other, many of the typical items become less essential (such as when using Magic Circle Against Evil).
If the opposition is largely humanoid fighter-types, then reducing their magic items and reducing PC magic items will make it come out to a wash.

As to balancing fighters vs. casters, one thing I'd suggest is keeping it "Core Only" for nearly everything, but allowing the fighter and rogue-oriented feats from the Complete series. No Spell Compendium spells. No Sudden Maximize or Divine Spell Power. Things like Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection go a long way to putting the fighters back on an even footing with casters.

Also: no ninjas. They're cheesy. Pirates, fine, ninjas, no.

 

[Klaus]

Ok, I (and to a differing extent, my players) think D&D is full of cheese. It's gotten hokey. (Ok, it's been hokey for quite some time...) This hasn't been a problem in the past, as I usually write my own adventures, but now I want to run an Adventure Path, so I'm embracing cheesiness in my current campaign 'cause I'm lazy, but I wish I could run a more toned down and believable game using published modules. Whenever I read a published module, I still get a strong desire to take a knife and cut out large hunks of cheesiness out of it.

Does anyone have a set of guidelines for un-cheesing published D&D adventures?

This thread assumes you believe aspects of D&D are cheesy, and published adventures need some level of changing. (If you don't agree, don't respond. This is not intended to be a debate about whether D&D is cheesy, or even specifically what is cheesy. I am not saying any specific way to play D&D is wrong. )

Here are some ideas I've considered:

- Replace every other magic item listed with mundane items/valuables. This reduces the overall abundance of magic in the game. Careful consideration needs to be made in each case, because some modules are written with the intent that some of the items will be useful to the players later in the adventure.
- Replace renaissance technology with medieval technology. Rapiers become short sword, hand crossbows become short bows, etc.
- Replaced any exotic weapons (spiked chains included!) with the closest non-exotic fit for the milieu. (With only a few exceptions, I think spiked chains are pure cheese.)
- Wherever feasible, replace alchemical items with mundane items. Tindertwigs become bundles of oiled torches, or bullseye lanterns and spare oil flasks, etc. Again care is needed to take into account specific assumptions in the module, such as creature tactics.
- Replace any templated creature that seems pointless or over-the-top (i.e. a pack of fiendish werebadgers on a wandering monster table) with more reasonable creatures of equivalent CR.
- Personally, I think the default economic system is way out of whack. I like to replace all references to "gp" with "sp" in all rules used, which returns a feel of value to gold pieces. I would prefer some easy way to redo the whole wealth-by-level system so that it doesn't rise so quickly... and possibly unhooking prices from magic items.
- Replacing magic traps with believable mundane ones, wherever appropriate and/or possible.

What I would love is to have a set of variants just like those presented in Unearthed Arcana, except all focused on converting "standard D&D" to "slightly more mundane D&D." Anyone got any ideas?

Caveat: I don't agree with what you call "cheese" in D&D. I DMed since 1e, and 3e - if anything - taught me how to open up the possibilities of my game.

The vast majority of what you consider cheese is, to me, merely a matter of description.

- A +2 weapon become a superior mastercraft weapon, and the +2 bonus is nonmagical (and, to prevent further tinkering, it still bypasses DR x/magic).

- A rapier becomes a slender shortsword, a tindertwig becomes a resin-coated stick, etc, with stats remaining the same. A spiked chain loses the spikes and becomes a length of chain. Since it's an exotic weapon, it's rare enough that you can justify it by saying it's from a distant land.

- Change all prices to sp and multiply the quantities by 10.

- A dwarf is just a short human with amazing endurance and a dour personality. An elf is a human with a natural gift for acrobatics, but a frail stamina, etc, etc.

 

[Kunimatyu]

D&D 3.5 ain't what you're looking for, pardner.

Try True20 or even Iron Heroes if you want the heroism minus the required magic.

 

[Rothe]

I think your method ironregime looks very good as a systematic approach. The only others I can think of is:

-substitute consumable magic items (scrolls, potions) for permanent ones (rings, wands);
-consider where substituting a alchemy/mundane based item for a potion, etc. would work.

 

[Remathilis]

A couple of good house rules.

Allow the heal skill to heal hp = the check 1/hour or 1/day. This should relieve the need for cure potions and wands. Alternately, allow alchemical cure balms (2d4 hp, full-round action).

Remove all item creation feats (with the possible exception of scribe scroll and/or brew potion).

In a Low-Magic Item game, the cleric is king. Wizard is the next. Followed by druid, paladin, bard, sorcerer, monk, then ranger, barbarian, fighter, rogue. At issue will be buff spells (bulls str, magic weapon, haste) or abilities that improve PC combat ability (wild shape, rage) or heal (cure spells, lay on hands).

Be careful for "save or die" creatures. Saving throws will be lower than assumed, and those DC 29 will saves might as well be "roll a 20 or die". Consider action points if you really want to un-cheese D&D.

Be very careful with powerful undead (liches, vampires), all non-elemental planar monsters (demons, devils), and abberations. They usually assume certain magical items (AC item, saving throw items, DR breaking weapons) and can be TPKs if not handled right. Be ready to convert or remove DR on the fly.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Aside from the magic (which is many threads on its own), I agree with ironregime that the technology and pseudo-technology, as well as the assumed social structures, can make D&D something that I think of as "cheesy." Too modern-feeling, among other things. I like his ideas on technology, alchemy, traps, and templates. Sounds like it'll be a great game.

I guess I prefer fantasy that FEELS a little more like European myth and legend (and therefore to some extent like medieval Europe) than the default assumed setting. So no dire flails, and limit alchemy to things that medieval alchemy could plausibly do with just a slight stretch (tindertwigs maybe, sunrods no). And failing that, I at least like SOME kind of defined world in which I can immerse myself. "Kitchen sink" settings can often be cheesy unless they have a good reason why you can find 50 different sentient races cohabiting in this world (Spelljammer, Planescape, maybe Eberron). Worlds that feel culturally too much like our world, with magic filling the role of technology, leave me cold -- I'd rather just play d20 Modern.

I'd also suggest a few cultural changes -- "Adventurer" should not be a common profession unless you're in Ptolus. "Soldier," "Scholar," "Mercenary," or "Explorer" fits better in many settings. Make PC-types rare in any event, with 99%+ of people rolling 3d6 in order for stats and rolling hp at 1st level. And consider things like social status, gender roles (perhaps magic favors women, so there is less sexism than our world has had in its history?), state religions, slavery, and so on, so it feels less like "Modern world in medieval drag."

 

[sukael]

- Replace every other magic item listed with mundane items/valuables. This reduces the overall abundance of magic in the game. Careful consideration needs to be made in each case, because some modules are written with the intent that some of the items will be useful to the players later in the adventure.

Problem with this is the assumed level of magic stuff in the game; it's not so bad at low levels, but at higher levels you pretty much need those +6 or higher bonuses to saves and abilities and attacks and damage and you get the idea to have a chance against monsters made with the normal assumptions.

One idea: encourage the PCs to upgrade existing items instead of constantly decking themselves out with new ones. The Magic Item Compendium helps with this (for one, it gets rid of the 1.5x cost for stacking magic item abilities along with basic things like ability boosts, meaning you could have Gloves of Storing and Dex +6 for the same price as Gloves of Storing and Gloves of Dex +6). This encourages them to forge relationships with NPC crafter-types, too.

- Replace renaissance technology with medieval technology. Rapiers become short sword, hand crossbows become short bows, etc.
- Replaced any exotic weapons (spiked chains included!) with the closest non-exotic fit for the milieu. (With only a few exceptions, I think spiked chains are pure cheese.)
- Wherever feasible, replace alchemical items with mundane items. Tindertwigs become bundles of oiled torches, or bullseye lanterns and spare oil flasks, etc. Again care is needed to take into account specific assumptions in the module, such as creature tactics.
- Replace any templated creature that seems pointless or over-the-top (i.e. a pack of fiendish werebadgers on a wandering monster table) with more reasonable creatures of equivalent CR.

Fair enough.

- Personally, I think the default economic system is way out of whack. I like to replace all references to "gp" with "sp" in all rules used, which returns a feel of value to gold pieces. I would prefer some easy way to redo the whole wealth-by-level system so that it doesn't rise so quickly... and possibly unhooking prices from magic items.

Sounds like an okay idea. Look at Magic Item Compendium - it lists "item levels" that serve to judge an item's general power level without a specific gold cost. A 4th-level PC would have 2 level-4 items, 2 level-3 items, and 2 level-1 items, as an example.

- Replacing magic traps with believable mundane ones, wherever appropriate and/or possible.

Fair enough. There are some great mundane traps in Dungeonscape.

 

[Aeolius]

Gouda luck The first step would be to stop using creatures from the Muenster Manual.