How to un-cheese D&D?

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NilesB said:
Almost all of the things you dislike about D&D are capabilities PCs are assumed to develop as they level
I read the original post VERY differently. I read it as MUCH more about a certain feel of the world than about magic levels or PC levels.

Of the things he mentioned:

The prevalence of magic items roughly correlates with higher-level play, although MIC works to introduce FAR more low-level magic.

Renaissance technology is more about campaign feel than about PC power. The OP mentioned rapiers and hand crossbows.

Exotic weapons are more about campaign feel than PC power.

Alchemical items are mostly used at low levels, and predominately impact campaign feel and immersion. Some of the items greatly increase PC power at low levels but are ineffective at high levels.

Templated creatures start appearing at low levels; ridiculous proliferation of templated creatures can cease to make them interesting, and can happen at any level. The example the OP used was a pack of fiendish werebadgers on a wandering monster table.

The economic system being silver-based rather than gold-based makes it feel a little more medieval-ish without affecting power level.

Magic traps and unbelievable mundane ones exist at low levels. Changing these to mundane traps that would be within the technological capabilities of their creators (given a goblin tribe's knowledge of metallurgy, clockwork, etc.) has nothing to do with keeping PC power low.
 

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ironregime said:
Does anyone have a set of guidelines for un-cheesing published D&D adventures?

This depends strongly on what you feel is "cheesy" about D&D.

For example, I find it relatively cheesy to have a 1001 different humanoid species. So for my current campaign world I started with just a handful of humanoid races:

Humans
Dwarves (and Dark Dwarves)
Elves (and Dark Elves)
Half-Elves
Orcs/Goblins/Ogres (all members of the same, highly diverse species)
Lizardfolk/Draconicans/Kobolds (all members of the same species)

Since then I've ended up adding giants, mind flayers, shapechangers, and a race of felinids from "across the Southern Sea". For a couple of campaigns I've allowed PC halflings from small isolated settlements (had a player who really loved halflings).

But for the most part I've found it relatively easy to convert published D&D adventures to match this. Any humanoid opponents usually end up being converted to orcs or adrak (the lizardfolk).

- Replace every other magic item listed with mundane items/valuables. This reduces the overall abundance of magic in the game. Careful consideration needs to be made in each case, because some modules are written with the intent that some of the items will be useful to the players later in the adventure.
- Replace renaissance technology with medieval technology. Rapiers become short sword, hand crossbows become short bows, etc.
- Replaced any exotic weapons (spiked chains included!) with the closest non-exotic fit for the milieu. (With only a few exceptions, I think spiked chains are pure cheese.)
- Wherever feasible, replace alchemical items with mundane items. Tindertwigs become bundles of oiled torches, or bullseye lanterns and spare oil flasks, etc. Again care is needed to take into account specific assumptions in the module, such as creature tactics.
- Replace any templated creature that seems pointless or over-the-top (i.e. a pack of fiendish werebadgers on a wandering monster table) with more reasonable creatures of equivalent CR.
- Personally, I think the default economic system is way out of whack. I like to replace all references to "gp" with "sp" in all rules used, which returns a feel of value to gold pieces. I would prefer some easy way to redo the whole wealth-by-level system so that it doesn't rise so quickly... and possibly unhooking prices from magic items.
- Replacing magic traps with believable mundane ones, wherever appropriate and/or possible.

Now, it sounds like what bugs you is primarily the commonplace nature of magical artifacts in the default D&D campaign setting: There are thousands upon thousands of spellcasters and they all tend to leave their mark on the world (and have been doing so for centuries).

This is more difficult. To "fix" this for you requires a bit more information, however: Is it what the magic allows the characters to do that bugs you or is it the fact that it's all being done with dozens of magical items that bugs you?

I can hear you on that one. There's something nice about a setting where King Arthur's Excalibur is notable. It's definitely a contrast to a setting where King Arthur has a magic sword, magic armor, a magic shield, a magic crown, a couple of magic rings, and a magic cloth to wipe his bum with.

But as long as you're still okay with heroes of legendary prowess who can tackle a bout of dragonslaying, then this is actually relatively easy to do:

1. Do you GP to SP conversion. Magic items other than scroll, potions, and wands keep their GP prices, making them exorbitantly expensive to construct.

2. Take a look at the WBL table. When a PC levels up, allow them to purchase abilities using, say, 75% of their WBL as if they were purchasing magic items. They don't actually purchase the magic items, but they get the ability. So a character may be able to climb on the walls -- but they'll be able to do it because they've bound the spirit of a spider to their chakra point (or whatever fluff text you prefer), not because they're wearing magical slippers. They'll be super-skilled with a blade because they've trained with it, not because they've got a +5 sword.

(I'm presuming that the other 25% of their wealth will actually be accumulated in SP as part of the adventure: It will be spent on mundane equipment, potions, etc. Some of it will also be the rare magical item that turns up.)

3. When converting adventures, simply look at the NPC stat blocks: Wherever they have a magic item listed, it's actually an ability they've trained to do. Unless, of course, it's one of those rare magic items you want to actually fall into the PCs' hands. (This will neatly reduce treasure levels and makes for an easy conversion, since stats don't actually change. It can be mostly done on the fly, in fact.)

If your problem is in what the PCs are capable of doing, then you've got a more difficult task. Basically you're going to have to just throw the CR system out past 8th level or so. And around 10th level or so the casters are going to completely dominate the melee fighters. There will be no easy conversions, since you'l always have to be wary of an encounter which would have been easy (since a standard party could, for example, fly) but would now be almost impossible (since your PCs can't).
 

sukael said:
Sounds like an okay idea. Look at Magic Item Compendium - it lists "item levels" that serve to judge an item's general power level without a specific gold cost. A 4th-level PC would have 2 level-4 items, 2 level-3 items, and 2 level-1 items, as an example.
Are those charts based on PC or NPC wealth guidelines? (I haven't gotten my copy of MIC yet -_-)
 

NilesB said:
1>Modify the D&D rulesset until it fits your preconceptions. This has no advantages over the other options, is a lot of work will create huge balance problems and renders it almost impossible to solicit player without false advertising. I do not recommend this course of action at all.


I do this, and have no problems with attracting players.

OTOH, I did recently begin a standard D&D side game, and one person I asked to play said he wasn't sure he was interested if I wasn't using the "good" rules (i.e., the house rules).

Good luck.


RC
 

I'd lower the amount of magic items and treasure to something you feel is suitable and then change the XP chart back to an exponetial system so that PCs have time to gather magic and such back to CR appropriate challenges. That would also give a reason to limit the amount of high level NPCs and high CR monsters in the world where power desparity might be bad but only for the actually rare few.
 

molonel said:
?!!?!?

I'm sorry, but given the number of threads we frequently see on low-magic, grim and gritty games, and the popularity of Conan OGL, Iron Heroes, Midnight, C&C etc. etc. I really don't see how this can be said. Yes, I know, the examples I listed are other rules set, but their availability and continued interest shows that there are MORE than enough people interested in playing these sorts of games.
But you didn't write Iron Heroes.
Mearls wrote it, and he's a better designer than you.
You don't advertise Iron Heroes as Dungeons & Dragons (with houserules)
You can advertise Iron Heroes as Iron Heroes, there will be people who know what you mean. Strangers cannot know the preferences and assumptions that inform your personal rewrite of the D&D rulesset. So people will look for what they know in your advert, that will be D&D.

They will expect D&D. And they will have every reason to.
 
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NilesB said:
They will expect D&D. And they will have every reason to.
They will have a right to expect the PHB material. Changes to that, such as the alchemical items or the exotic weapons, or changes to item creation feats, should be included in the up-front campaign background.

A player never has the right to expect that ANYTHING in the DMG or MM are used as printed. These books are the DM's domain. By selectively altering the material in these books, the DM can create an immersive game world and can keep the players surprised with his adventures and encounters.
 

Raven Crowking said:
I do this, and have no problems with attracting players.

OTOH, I did recently begin a standard D&D side game, and one person I asked to play said he wasn't sure he was interested if I wasn't using the "good" rules (i.e., the house rules).

Good luck.


RC

The only way that I can get my friends to play DND is using houserules. This also happens to be a good thing, because I'll only play DND using a number of houserules.
 

NilesB said:
But you didn't write Iron Heroes. Mearls wrote it, and he's a better designer than you.

Holy crap! So THAT is why they aren't sending me royalities checks for Iron Heroes?

Who woulda thunk it?

Can't put nothin' past you, nossir.

NilesB said:
You don't advertise Iron Heroes as Dungeons & Dragons (with houserules)
You can advertise Iron Heroes as Iron Heroes, there will be people who know what you mean. Strangers cannot know the preferences and assumptions that inform your personal rewrite of the D&D rulesset. So people will look for what they know in your advert, that will be D&D.

They will expect D&D. And they will have every reason to.

You evidently skipped the part where I said, "Yes, I know, the examples I listed are other rules set, but their availability and continued interest shows that there are MORE than enough people interested in playing these sorts of games."

I run a modified D&D game. I have the books for Iron Heroes, but I've never run an Iron Heroes game. The post I replied to said that you can't run a modified D&D game and expect players.

I can, and I do. And I still have people lined up out the door.

The other rules sets I mentioned, and their continued demand and popularity, are simply to illustrate that the market for low-magic, or grim and gritty games and rules sets, indicates that there are PLENTY of people willing to play these games.

In my case, I run modified D&D games.

And I still have a waiting list.

D&D is simply a name encompassing a broad swath of gaming styles, modified rules sets and house rules. Nearly everyone I know has house rules. But they're still playing D&D.
 

Wow, more great commentary and insight. Thanks guys!

A little background... I have run my own heavily house-ruled game in the past (with a more realistic, medieval feel). I like it. My players like it. Now I want to run a published adventure path (let's say Shackled City).

All that's really missing is a book like Unearthed Arcana that presents a bunch of pick-and-choose variants that let a DM convert elements of published modules quickly/painlessly to a more believable milieu without having to switch out the entire game system. For argument's sake, let's call this imaginary book Uncheesed Arcana.

So I'm ok with multiple people having different opinions of "what is cheese," because individual DMs can just select whatever variants they want from Uncheesed Arcana to use in their game and make it a little less over-the-top (whatever that means to them).

Just like in UA, sidebars would explain potential pitfalls when implementing and/or combining variants.

Given the many great ideas seeded in this thread, we should be able to cobble together a table of contents for Uncheesed Arcana.
 

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