How to un-cheese D&D?

[CruelSummerLord]

Destil, Emirikol, Shin Ji, EditorBFG, Ravellion, drothgery, Brother MacLaren, and others have made some excellent points, namely about the 1,001 exotic races and how players expect them to be available, players who whine and complain if they don't have X amount of wealth and magic items as shown in the books, and how giving characters fewer magic items increases the chances of being slaughtered.

I raised several of these points in my "Does D&D 3E dictate a certain style of play?", which these posts seem to confirm, but I was simply shouted down or told that the problem didn't exist, although a few people did agree with me.

Suggestions:

-Feel free to blow off the rules when your judgment thinks something else. If the players don't have some obscure feat to do something, but they want to try it anyway, let them.

-Personalize your magical items, and make magic meaningful again. That +2 ring of protection isn't just an ordinary ring-describe it, maybe give it a bit of background, instead of just making it one of the twinks that every lowly minion has to boost their AC, as some FR sourcebooks are wont to do. If you get a magical item, describe it, attach some legends to it, or what have you. That greatly enhances the atmosphere of the game, and makes magic seem like something special, not something that's just used to tweak out and max your character's killing capacity.

-No twink races. Dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, half-elves, half-ogres, half-orcs and humans are the ONLY choices allowed for races. And no prestige classes either, unless the player is willing to put in the time and effort to learn it, instead of just breezily deciding to add a few levels of this and a few levels of that.

-When you do introduce the exotic, make sure it stays exotic. If your PCs get something unusual, make sure to remind them, both in and out of character, just how special their characters are.

-Explain to your players very clearly that these changes are going to be made, so they won't howl in protest when their half-qullan-half-beholder/witchslayer/spellsinger/bladetwinker with the Highland Jumping feat isn't allowed in the game. A DM has the right to dictate what is and is not acceptable in his game, and players are quite welcome to set their own parameters when _they_ get in the driver's seat.

Again, I would like to thank the posters I cited above. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Especial props to Brother MacLaren and EditorBFG for helping me realize just what it is that bugs me so much about 3E: the exotic becoming common. Blah.

 

[William drake]

You do realize, that by limiting the amount of magic items available, you skew the game in favor of full casters quite dramatically, right?

Fighters NEED magic items. Casters just like their magic items. I think that what you want is a different system, like Iron Heroes, as previously mentioned, or Mongoose Publishing's Conan.

Once again, see his #11. Why does everyone think that, just because You'd take all the combat spells, that every wizard is loaded down with nothinig but fireballs and lightning bolts.

I once played a game, where during the night, one of the players peeked at my sheet and said "hey, why do you have float...why didn't you take______ *insert any killing spell* Later that night, I hovered over the bog while the players had to wade through it...I lauged.


Utility, over must outgun out power the players: this goes for monsters when DM's use them in such a way.

 

[molonel]

I have no problem with any of these rules, but I wanted to add something:

And no prestige classes either, unless the player is willing to put in the time and effort to learn it, instead of just breezily deciding to add a few levels of this and a few levels of that.

Personally, I prefer these three rules in conjunction:

1. Core only except by DM approval.
2. Don't bring anything broken into my game. If you bring something in that's broken, or it turns out to be broken, I will remove it at no penalty to you. I am also the final arbiter of what "broken" means in my game.
3. No more than 3 classes total on any given character.

Prestige classes are cool, and simply removing them from the game doesn't improve it. However, if the salad bar approach bothers you, having a 3-class limit generally makes players more conscientious about their choices.

Explain to your players very clearly that these changes are going to be made, so they won't howl in protest when their half-qullan-half-beholder/witchslayer/spellsinger/bladetwinker with the Highland Jumping feat isn't allowed in the game.

I print out a copy of my house rules before beginning a new campaign, and have everyone read them. Then, for the first session, I ask if there are any comments or complaints. I have no desire to sell anyone on a game they won't enjoy.

 

[William drake]

You can do it, but it might hurt your players.

Cut out all spell like, and supernatural feats and abilities. Remember...your humans, or human like...this doesn't mean you can fly or punch through walls. This goes for monsters as well, unless you want just that one thing that is really nasty and requires a fully effort to kill.


Cut out Spell Resistance, and if things have natural resistances, cut them back, or take them out entirely. The things that you might be able to biologicaly explain: dragons can breath fire because they have glans in their mouths, like snakes, that excreat a natual chemical, that when it touches air, ignites into flames.....then do so, for ones you can't get rid of them.

Remember that normal beasts are still dangersous: bears, boars, wild cats, wolves...even a group of crows could kill a man.

Play up the survival aspect of your game; do some reading on what it takes to survive in the winter, summer or raining weather for long periods of time. Don't always time jump travle, see how the players would really GET BY out there. If they dont happen to have the skills or equip, if in the past they were used to DM's just letting those things go, dont. You will find that players will spend their money on things they need, and less on the crap that bothers you.

Magic.......I cant say it enough. If your not a wizard or cleric or someone who's around it, and not afraid of it *play up the myth and fear of magic* then you dont have it. And, if you saw it, you might not want it for fear of it. Also, make things rare...one secret place to by magical items for per 200 miles; and then, you got to know about it. ANd its blackmarket stuff, things taken off dead wizards or w/e. Limit the items, one this..and its called___ one that, and its called___ if you name and limit things, then they still exist, but now they are important. "THE ONE RING" get my point. And not everyone has a flame bursting sword; when everyone has magic, noone has magic.


And for the wizards...and others who use magic. Make it much much harder to put their powers into physical reality. This makes it so that they dont powermonger over the other players; put in rules of their society so that they dont just pump out the goods. Think of it like the CIA...if you sell what is ours, you might go to jail, or go missing in a mysterious white van.

Look up the Spycraft rules for combat. Makes things much more lethal, while still using Hp to explain vitality...or, energy which can be used up for physical acts. This rule makes it so that you CON, is your really HP or GUTS...and, this makes it so that no matter what level you are, it makes you equal and the only things that keeps you alive are your skills, your powers, your training and how you use it. These rules still alow for the (luck shot) which everyone is open to; if not, then the game is boring. You know how much damage you can take, or w/e but now, its real....this person might get inside you and cut your throat. Your 124Hp doesn't matter if your CON is 16..thats two good swipes from a sword and your dead. This makes armor, and dex and playing it smart much more apart of the game.




Now, you'd have to limit healing too..but in the Spycraft rules, they talk about that too.



I've spent alot of time finding out what gaming style I like: and to me,its fantasy, with as much realilsim so not to take away the flare of the game.


My opinion is this; just because I can give a good exp of what a DRAGON really is, doesn't make it less fantastic and with that in mind at all times, I run my game as best as I can.


Game On

 

[Baron Opal]

Let's see. What I've done is:

• Changed to a silver economy.
• Increased the number of alchemical items to mimic "hedge witchery".
• Only potions and scrolls are purchasable, and may be charms, magic phrases, etc.
• Permanent items can't be bought with mere gold.
• Permanent items are unique, not just a simple plus.
• Severely limited the number of intelligent humanoid races.
• Certain "cheezy" monsters, if they exist at all, are unique abberations.

Also, my PCs are working for a patron. Half of their consumables are are given to them by their patron as are about half of their nifty magic items. My players were entertained by a Rivendell scene where their patron handed out significant items, one per character, with the backstory and such.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

I have no problem with any of these rules, but I wanted to add something:



Personally, I prefer these three rules in conjunction:

1. Core only except by DM approval.
2. Don't bring anything broken into my game. If you bring something in that's broken, or it turns out to be broken, I will remove it at no penalty to you. I am also the final arbiter of what "broken" means in my game.
3. No more than 3 classes total on any given character.

Prestige classes are cool, and simply removing them from the game doesn't improve it. However, if the salad bar approach bothers you, having a 3-class limit generally makes players more conscientious about their choices.



I print out a copy of my house rules before beginning a new campaign, and have everyone read them. Then, for the first session, I ask if there are any comments or complaints. I have no desire to sell anyone on a game they won't enjoy.

Awesome suggestions. Again, I realize just what it is that bothers me-the "salad bar" approach, as you put it.

It is, in a way, a relief to know that there are other people out there with the same concerns I have. And it's also good to see that there are still great modules out there that don't have any of this cheese ("Dragons of Autumn" is an excelent one-I'm not all that fond of the DL novels, but I love the DL modules!)

 

[billd91]

Destil, Emirikol, Shin Ji, EditorBFG, Ravellion, drothgery, Brother MacLaren, and others have made some excellent points, namely about the 1,001 exotic races and how players expect them to be available, players who whine and complain if they don't have X amount of wealth and magic items as shown in the books, and how giving characters fewer magic items increases the chances of being slaughtered.

I raised several of these points in my "Does D&D 3E dictate a certain style of play?", which these posts seem to confirm, but I was simply shouted down or told that the problem didn't exist, although a few people did agree with me.

From the posts you're talking about, I'd say it's clear D&D doesn't dictate a certain style of play, rather that some styles take a little more work than others. A far bigger problem is whether or not the desires of the people you are playing with allow any kind of style under the sun.

 

[JustinA]

From the posts you're talking about, I'd say it's clear D&D doesn't dictate a certain style of play, rather that some styles take a little more work than others. A far bigger problem is whether or not the desires of the people you are playing with allow any kind of style under the sun.

Exactly.

D&D is actually one of the most flexible systems out there: It provides a solid playing experience with common, everyday people (1st level) and continues to provide a solid playing experience all the way to near-demigods (15th level+). It starts to display some problems as you approach 20th level, but it still holds up remarkably well.

I compare this to GURPS (which can handle realistic power levels exceptionally well but falls apart at superheroic levels) or Hero (which has exactly the opposite problem), and I come away pretty satisfied.

Bog-standard D&D, using all of the tools out-of-the-box, comes with some assumptions. It has to. Otherwise all those useful tools (treasure tables, CR, etc.) wouldn't be possible at all. But it's actually very easy to find your personal sweet spot in its vast range of power, target it, and hit it.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Want less cheese? I'd say that the trick is in the setting (pick one that you really like, or - even better - make one up [without going overkill]), and in the describing of beings, places, actions, events (by the DM, and to a lesser extent the players). Then, you can run just about whatever adventure you like, re-flavoured to suit, or - even better - design your own [without going overkill].

I've seen some pretty darn cheesy GnG, and some rather classy "pure" D&D in my time - and yes, that includes teh d02.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Just do everything you originally posted, and maybe bump up the PC's ability scores, with a higher point buy or what have you.

I myself prefer a slightly toned down, magic item-wise campaign, so a good idea is to implement a higher ability score generation method (32+ point buy, 5d6 drop the lowest two etc).