How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

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No, but they do have backgrounds and ideals and flaws and so forth, which a 5e DM could focus on and test if that's how she wanted to run the game.
As I have posted in the past, if someone wants to point me to all the 5e play that is pretty close to Burning Wheel in its procedures, I'd love to know about it.

But that hasn't happened yet. Instead, what I tend to see is posts saying that there's no real difference between the approach to play set out in the BW rulebooks and the Mialee raise dead fetch quest set out in the 3E DMG.
 

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The impression I get is more that GMs in those systems are strongly discouraged from having or using (or at the extreme aren't allowed to have or use) pre-existing ideas
Yet, as has often been said, that impression is false. Perhaps even a false dogma?

Upthread I even posted about this in relation to Burning Wheel, and provided some actual play examples. Maybe you didn't read them? Perhaps I should have rolled a knowledge check for you.
 

A lot of the Forge/story games crowd have had huge issues actually getting the style of game they want. The parts of the furniture are there in trad games but the assembly guide isn’t. So yeah, if you read The Burning Wheel you can back port the knowledge to 5E but you don’t get that knowledge by reading 5E.

It’s a bit analogous to stuff like the ‘old school primer’, you have these furniture parts and some seem absurd or stupid or outdated, then you read a good guide and suddenly it all makes sense. You can assemble the type of game you want.

Now this raises the question, should we evaluate a system based on the play advice for the system? If you don’t think so, then all story game type critiques are going to seem ludicrous. On the other hand, I don’t think you can credit the game text either. There’s some belief type stuff in 5e, so what.
I agree with, but I also think there are technical features of BW that make it better suited for the sort of play it advocates than 5e D&D. These include the use of dice pools rather than d20 (so failure is always a possibility, even if unlikely); the fact that every action where something is at stake requires a test (as opposed to the auto-success for spells in 5e); and the way that expanding or narrowing the scope (in time or space) of actions is easily handled.

I know from experience that trying to run Rolemaster in a proto-BW-ish fashion gives rise to some of these issues too (and other ones, like the way that consequences in RM don't interact well with a scene-frame-y approach).
 

Yet, as has often been said, that impression is false. Perhaps even a false dogma?

Upthread I even posted about this in relation to Burning Wheel, and provided some actual play examples. Maybe you didn't read them? Perhaps I should have rolled a knowledge check for you.

You're in a 140 page thread spanning three weeks, and folks actually have lives that take up much of their time. Maybe you ought to cut folks slack on what stuck in their minds, and what didn't.
 

My take is that GM-side creativity ahead of time, where one has a chance to think it over, refine it, augment it, write it down, or even chuck it if it ain't gonna work, is more likely to provide a better and more consistent game experience than if everything is made up on the fly.
This surely depends on the individual in question.

But anyway, here is a bit about prep from Apocalypse World (p 136):

A front is a set of linked threats. Threats are people, places and conditions that, because of where they are and what they’re doing, inevitably threaten the players’ characters - so a front is all of the individual threats that arise from a single given threatening situation.

Creating a front means making decisions about backstory and about NPC motivations. Real decisions, binding ones, that call for creativity, attention and care. You do it outside of play, between sessions, so that you have the time and space to think.

A front has some apparently mechanical components, but it’s fundamentally conceptual, not mechanical. The purpose of your prep is to give you interesting things to say. As MC you’re going to be playing your fronts, playing your threats, but that doesn’t mean anything mechanical. It means saying what they do. It means offering opportunities to the players to have their characters do interesting things, and it means responding in interesting ways to what the players have their characters do.

Accordingly, when you create a front, follow your own inspiration. Choose the things that are suggestive to you, that put you in mind of apocalyptica, romance, violence, gore, danger, trauma. Choose the things you’d just [freaking] kill to see well done on the big screen, and skip the things that don’t spark your interest.​

Notice that there is no rejection of the idea that time and space to think can matter. There is no rejection of the GM (MC) incorporating their ideas into their prep.

And notice how there is a clear statement of the purpose of the prep: to give the GM interesting things to say.

This feeds into the game's basic procedure of play, which requires the GM to say things at certain times - things about what happens next in the fiction. The purpose of prep is to give the GM those things to say. This is elaborated on p 142:

[M]ake moves for your threats exactly like you make your regular moves:

• When it’s time for you to talk, choose a move (a regular move or a threat move, it makes no difference) and make it happen.

• If the players have handed you a golden opportunity (like if they blow a roll, or if they let you set something up and follow through on it), make as hard and direct a move as you like, the more irrevocable the better. Otherwise, make your move to set yourself up and to offer them the opportunity to react.

• Address yourself to the character not the player, misdirect, and never speak your move’s name. Always.​

Now, the GM doesn't just make up fronts willy-nilly. The making of fronts happens after the first session, as is explained on p 132:

After the 1st session:
Not, like, immediately after. Give it some time to sink in. I generally think about it idly all through work the next day.

See the list of resources? Listing each threat’s available resources will give you insight into who they are, what they need, and what they can do to get it. It’s especially useful to give some threats resources that the PCs need but don’t have.

Now go back over it all. Pull it into its pieces. Solidify them into threats, following the rules in the next chapter - so now, in the cold light of day, are Uncle’s raiders really a hunting pack, or are they sybarites instead? Are Bran’s crew a family after all, or are they something weirder, like Carna is a hive queen and Pamming and Thuy are her drones? Are the burn flats a furnace or a breeding pit?

Take these solid threats and build them up into fronts. Take the things you wonder about and rewrite them as stakes. Add countdowns and custom moves as you need.

The rules for fronts and threats follow, next chapter . . .​

At an appropriate level of abstraction, this can be seen to be similar to the collaborative approach for establishing setting and situation found in Burning Wheel. At a more fine-grained level of technical analysis, it is different of course, and more precisely structured.

But it does show that the notion that AW (and similar games) eschew the GM contributing ideas is simply false. As I have posted many, many times before, what distinguishes these RPGs is their processes of play: how ideas are created, when and why they are brought "onto the stage", how those ideas are used in action resolution, etc.
 



In 0e, and to an extent 1e if using 0th-level rules, you could have Farmer Bob as your PC; he'd learned how to use a few weapons while defending sheep from wolves, then when the farm burned down he became a wanderer and eventually got caught up in the adventuring life. Ditto for an urchin who became a street thief and progressed from there to adventuring.

He'd learned to use every weapon, and somehow become tougher than any other farmer by a factor of one and a half to two (since OD&D did not actually have any examplar normals).

So, no. I have no sign this was anything we'd consider an everyman hero.
 


I agree with, but I also think there are technical features of BW that make it better suited for the sort of play it advocates than 5e D&D. These include the use of dice pools rather than d20 (so failure is always a possibility, even if unlikely); the fact that every action where something is at stake requires a test (as opposed to the auto-success for spells in 5e); and the way that expanding or narrowing the scope (in time or space) of actions is easily handled.

I know from experience that trying to run Rolemaster in a proto-BW-ish fashion gives rise to some of these issues too (and other ones, like the way that consequences in RM don't interact well with a scene-frame-y approach).
I agree. Or to put it REALLY charitably, 5E has many mechanics that can potentially bomb Narrativist play, caveat emptor.
 

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