How well does turning work in your campaign?

[The Souljourner]

I have an 8th level Radiant Servant of Pelor. He has the Sun and Glory domains (glory is +2 to turn checks and +1d6 turn "damage"). He has 16 charisma. He has 5+ ranks in knowledge: religion. He can't turn sh-t.

Anyone else experiencing this?

Here's the problem - turning relies on hit dice... and undead tend to have a lot of hitdice for their CR, because they don't get Con bonuses (among other things reasons). For example, skeletons have *at least* twice their CR in hitdice. Zombies have three times their CR in hitdice. That means that it can be impossible for my 8th level cleric to turn a CR 6 skeleton, or a CR 4(!) zombie. At best (if they have the lowest hitdice of their CR), it requires a roll of 17+ to turn them, and that's only because of my high charisma and the Glory domain power (and 5 ranks of knowledge: religion).

Is it any wonder that clerics clamor for divine feats that let them use their otherwise useless turn attempts?

-The Souljourner

 

[Legildur]

I don't know why exactly (as I don't usually play the clerics in our parties), but we only seem to face dramas under 2 conditions, where the creatures:

1. Have Turn Resistance; or
2. Are in a descrated or other unholy area.

Otherwise, turning seems to work fine for us - no guarantees, but useful.

But if I were a cleric, I'd be grabbing some divine feats from Complete Divine - typically the one that allows you to burn a turn attempt to boost caster level, or the one that grants Fast Healing 3 to companions within 60ft for a few rounds.

 

[hazmat]

I saw a thread on here about a variant in complete divine that does damage in stead of the generic turning. I'm not sure how it works but I'd take a look at it to see if you like it.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I use the undeads CR+Turn Resistance+Other Modifiers instead of hit dice.

 

[The Souljourner]

Legildur - heh, Divine Spell Power is the caster level one... have it. Sacred Healing is the fast healing one, probably picking that up at 9th. I just wish I could... you know... turn undead with my turn undead attempts.

Aust - I like your idea. That's pretty much the houserule I'd like to see instituted. Maybe CR +2 or something, since you don't want to make it *too* easy for clerics to bust up the undead... but dayum... it ought to at least be *possible* to turn things your own level

-The Souljourner

 

[HeavyG]

Maybe CR +2 or something, since you don't want to make it *too* easy for clerics to bust up the undead...

That's what turn resistance is for, IMO.

 

[MichaelH]

Anyone else experiencing this?

Actually, no. The players I DM for has a 15th level cleric. He has used his turn undead ability quite effectively, especially with encounters consisting of many undead of lower CR. Of course he cannot turn the undead BBEG. That would be anticlimactic, though.

Also, there are many undead that have the same HD as their CR, or close to it. Spectres come to mind. They do have +2 turn resistance, but turnable by a 7th level cleric. Perhaps you are just running into single high HD undead. If that's the case, you may not be able to turn them.

 

[mmoran5554]

i think turning undead is useless. you're better off tearing them apart with a huge maul or blunt weapon.

 

[Shin Okada]

Indeed, big dumb undead monsters have much higher HD than their CR. CR 6 zombie has HD of 20 and thus almost impossible to be turned by clerics of appropriate level.

Also, DMs tend to avoid "one-turn-kill" of BBEG.So BBEG undead tend to have huge turn resistance (say, spellstitched lich with Improved Turn Resistance feat & Cloak of Turn Resistance) or immune to turning (like Death Knight).

In my experience (both as DM & a player), turn undead works best against undead monsters with some terrible special abilities, especially, incorporeal ones. Those monsters tend not to have that much HD comparing to CR. Yet, it is very important to dispatch them quickly. Multiple incorporeal undead is a real threat even when each of them has much lower CR than PC's level.

 

[The Souljourner]

Actually, no. The players I DM for has a 15th level cleric. He has used his turn undead ability quite effectively, especially with encounters consisting of many undead of lower CR. Of course he cannot turn the undead BBEG. That would be anticlimactic, though.

Also, there are many undead that have the same HD as their CR, or close to it. Spectres come to mind. They do have +2 turn resistance, but turnable by a 7th level cleric. Perhaps you are just running into single high HD undead. If that's the case, you may not be able to turn them.

I don't want to turn the BBEG, as you said, that would be anticlimactic, and not that much fun to boot. However, I *would* like to be able to turn skeletons and zombies that are well below my group's average level. Sure, once you hit 15th, you just don't see many skeletons or zombies.

I guess my problem is just with skeletons and zombies. Everything else has similar hitdice to CR (though many have turn resistance). The only problem is, at low and low-mid levels, all you really see are skeletons and zombies (or at least, they're by far the most common). And it's not just "the one high HD guy".... my group can handle three CR 6 monsters plus other minions without a serious threat of death.

Indeed, big dumb undead monsters have much higher HD than their CR. CR 6 zombie has HD of 20 and thus almost impossible to be turned by clerics of appropriate level.

Not almost... it *is* impossible. Just flat out. In fact, a CR6 zombie with 20 hitdice is impossible for the aforementioned 15th level cleric to turn.

-The Souljourner