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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8445839" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I don't see this as a problem.&nbsp; To start with it is only true if said Thief or Bard invests in strength.&nbsp; Without a heavy strength investment they can be good but not the best.&nbsp; A strength-based martial with athletics proficiency would be better than an 8-strength Bard with expertise until 17th level when PB hits +6, at which point they would be tied at +11.&nbsp; The Bard will never actually be better.&nbsp; If you consider reliable talent then the 8-strength Rogue with +7 and reliable talent at 11th level will average 19.75, slightly higher than the 19.5 averaged by the martial with a +9.Also both Rune Knights and Barbarians can get nearly at-will advantage which is generally better than expertise and Rune Knights can turn large size which lets them grapple Giants and Dragons and such.That said if the Rogue takes expertise he should be generally better than anyone else, it would be bad to undo this and would severely nerf the Rogue.&nbsp; If someone else wants that mutliclass or take a feat to get it!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8445839, member: 7030563"] I don't see this as a problem. To start with it is only true if said Thief or Bard invests in strength. Without a heavy strength investment they can be good but not the best. A strength-based martial with athletics proficiency would be better than an 8-strength Bard with expertise until 17th level when PB hits +6, at which point they would be tied at +11. The Bard will never actually be better. If you consider reliable talent then the 8-strength Rogue with +7 and reliable talent at 11th level will average 19.75, slightly higher than the 19.5 averaged by the martial with a +9. Also both Rune Knights and Barbarians can get nearly at-will advantage which is generally better than expertise and Rune Knights can turn large size which lets them grapple Giants and Dragons and such. That said if the Rogue takes expertise he should be generally better than anyone else, it would be bad to undo this and would severely nerf the Rogue. If someone else wants that mutliclass or take a feat to get it! [/QUOTE]

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